GB 233 TRANSCRIPT Soil Questions. Winter Tomatoes
Farmer Fred 0:00
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Farmer Fred 0:31
What does your soil need for a thriving garden? Today, America’s Favorite Retired College Horticulture Professor, Debbie Flower, tackles your questions about what you should add - or not add - to your soil.
And it’s winter tomato time! What? You can grow tomatoes in the winter? What do you need to grow tomatoes in the winter? The right environment - a greenhouse with a heater is ideal - and the right tomato varieties, for tomato growing winter success. Today, it’s winter tomato tips!
We’re podcasting from Barking Dog Studios here in the beautiful Abutilon Jungle in Suburban Purgatory. It’s the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred podcast, brought to you today by Smart Pots and Dave Wilson Nursery. Let’s go!
Farmer Fred 1:17
We like to answer your garden questions here on the Garden Basics podcast. Debbie Flower is here with her expertise, she is America's favorite retired college horticultural professor. And Debbie, we get a question from Eric in Rocklin.
Debbie Flower 1:29
All righty. Hi, Fred.
Eric in Rocklin 1:30
This is Eric from Rocklin, California. I have a large vegetable garden that I regularly amend with organic matter, including chicken manure, sawdust, grass clippings and straw. And I need to know if I need to, at some point, amend my vegetable garden soil with some kind of mineral. thanks to you and Debbie in advance.
Farmer Fred 1:53
Thank you, Eric, for the question. You might be overthinking this one.
Debbie Flower 1:57
Yeah. The first question that comes to mind for me is it sounds like it's an outdoor garden, and he's in field soil. But is that really what happened? A lot of people have a raised bed and they purchase soil, which isn't really soil, it's organic media, and they grow in that, but either way it works. You can grow in a soilless media that's along with all the plants and containers at a nursery you're in and it works in a raised bed. Or you can amend the field soil that you have. And that means starting with the soil, which is mineral based in the ground, and mixing in other things. All the organics Eric mentioned are possibilities or you can plant into the field soil that is mineral based and probably has some organic matter in it. you could use the organics as mulch.
Farmer Fred 2:52
What percentage of commercial potting mix would you use in field soil?
Debbie Flower 2:59
I don't amend at all. I use it only as mulch.
Farmer Fred 3:03
So this is advice for other people.
Debbie Flower 3:06
How about you?
Farmer Fred 3:10
Depends how frustrated I am. For instance, I had some pelargoniums growing in the backyard. And they weren't growing much at all. And so last week, I decided okay, it's fall, time to move things out, move new ones in. I took out the pelargoniums and then started digging. It wouldn't work with a shovel. I needed the pick, because it was solid rock. So basically, those pelargoniums were just resting on a thin layer of soil, which is why they were doing nothing. And more than likely, if I missed watering for a few days, the water table was very shallow as far as what it can hold in that space. It dried out. They wilted. Alright, so I got out the pickaxe and started chopping a hole. And I learned this when I had acreage in heavy clay soil, you dig or pickaxe as deep as you can, for as long as you can, which in my case is about five minutes. Fill the hole with water and come back the next day. Dig a little bit more. Just do it until you get to the depth that you want. So I've taken out a lot of rock. I don't have much choice but to put in other media there.
Debbie Flower 4:24
Okay, so you're creating a container in the soil. And if the plant will live, I'm happy with it, right? That then if I had enough soil to go around, the maximum organic matter I would put in is 20%.
Farmer Fred 4:39
Okay, so that would then be a matter of digging out as much soil and rock and sifting it and getting the rocks out?
Debbie Flower 4:47
Well, it depends on the size of the rocks.
Farmer Fred 4:50
You're gonna break a window with them. They were an inch, or two inch in diameter.
Debbie Flower 4:58
Okay, you could keep some . You can mix those in, they make, great spacing for inorganic base material. But at that point, they're rocks. They're not minerals. I mean, they're rocks made of minerals, but they're not the mineral component of a soil.
Farmer Fred 5:14
Eric, we're not suggesting you put rocks in the holes.
Debbie Flower 5:16
No, we're not, no, we're not. I'm concerned about the hole you're talking about Fred, that you're going to have, it's going to act like a container, you're gonna have water sitting in the bottom for some period of time, after you've watered it, you could plant in an organic soilless mix. In that case, I would add sand. So you're gonna have to buy your mineral component, which would be probably sand, unless you go by topsoil. And mix that in with the organic matter. In the big containers I grow in, which are the four foot long by two feet high and two feet wide. They are watering troughs.I have bamboo in those.
Farmer Fred 6:05
I always find that funny.
Debbie Flower 6:06
And I've seen lots of them used for other things, I tried to put a large amount of the rock components into the mix, for what purpose, because the organic part is going to break down and compact. And the spaces between the organic matter, as the particles get smaller, the spaces between the organic particles get smaller, and the ability of that media to hold air and water is reduced. And so the rocks, even the ones you're talking about, one to two inch, provide an opening, a structure around which this media can go and that at least put some air spaces and water spaces in the media. Even when the organic matter is breaking down.
Farmer Fred 6:52
Now, at this point, you're supposed to tell me, “Oh, you're trying to plant right in front of a raised bed. Why don't you just put the new plants in the raised bed?”
Debbie Flower 7:00
I didn't know that.
Farmer Fred 7:04
So that's the voice in the back of my head, telling me I’m just working too hard.
Debbie Flower 7:09
Yeah, but what what are you using in your raised beds?
Farmer Fred 7:12
Commercial soil.
Debbie Flower 7:14
That is soil less or is it a mix from a business?
Farmer Fred 7:18
It's good stuff.
Debbie Flower 7:21
So it's a mix with mineral components. Yeah, field soil. Ideal field soil in the open spaces is 50% Air, 50% water. It's about 45% mineral, and two to 3% organic matter.
Farmer Fred 7:40
I was surprised to learn how little organic matter actually is comprised in a soil. It's like if you're lucky, 5%. That's amazing.
Debbie Flower 7:49
Right. And if you live in a cooler place, that might change things because the breakdown of the organic matter is much slower. Although the presence of organic matter, and a natural system in a very cold place , may be much less. But you can have an organic soil and you can grow in it. You just have to learn to work with what you have.
Farmer Fred 8:10
One thing that is spurring me on to keep digging with the pickaxe is the fact that these plants are going to be watered by hand. That way I know they stand little chance of being over watered. So I'm thinking if I am putting basically an in -round container in there with what I'm doing. I don't think there'll be standing water for too long.
Debbie Flower 8:32
That would be something to test before you plant it.
Farmer Fred 8:36
Yes, how long it takes to drain.
Debbie Flower 8:37
How long it takes to drain.
Farmer Fred 8:38
I used to talk about that a lot that when you dig a hole for planting, if you have layers of hard pan or slow draining clay, do this: fill that hole up with water. And notice how long it takes to drain. Does it drain at all? Does it take longer than 24 hours to drain? Then you're in trouble. And if it does, someone might say what about 48 hours? Well, you're pushing it then. But if there's still water in it after 48 hours, definitely you want to plant up (in a mound or raised bed) not plant down (into existing soil).
Debbie Flower 9:11
And the other option is, if it drains immediately, then you know that it's got to be a plant that can handle dry side moisture.
Farmer Fred 9:21
And the reason for that could be, Oh, you hit a gopher run.
Debbie Flower 9:24
Yes, that's very true. That that has happened. Yes.
Farmer Fred 9:29
Or you have really really sandy soil. And that's a whole other show in itself, as far as how water spreads in different soil media.
Farmer Fred 9:41
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Farmer Fred 11:34
So what makes for a successful garden soil? Let's continue our conversation with Debbie Flower. But in Eric's case, he’s wondering how much mineral to add, when we don't know really what's in the soil. I would think a soil test is in order.
Debbie Flower 11:48
Yes, I agree. A Soil test is in order and you know some great places to get that done.
Farmer Fred 11:52
It's amazing the number of universities scattered throughout the country that will do it for a very reasonable fee. If you have priced soil tests, you know they can be rather pricey, over $100. The University of Massachusetts, Colorado State University and Texas A&M are three that do soil testing at very reasonable rates. And we'll have links to all three of their soil testing services in today's show notes. And that report is probably not going to give you all the details you want. But it's going to give you the primary details, including what you need to add to your soil.
Debbie Flower 12:27
So they will return a soil texture. So that sand, silt, clay. And then there are things like, silty loam, sandy clay. Without the modifications in there, loam is what you want. But if you’re like most people, many people will not have that. So, you can work with what you do have, but it'll tell you that that has to do a lot with your watering practices. And then it will also tell you your pH. So that's your alkalinity or acidity, Anything around seven is good. 5.5 to 6.5 is what I learned at Rutgers in the East Coast. And then I came to Davis and they said, Oh 6.5 to 7.5. So again, that can be regional, what people consider to be acceptable. But anything right around seven is good. Not too far off seven, because it's a factor of 10 scale. And then you'll get some specifics about nutrients available for plant use in the results. So nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium, you can ask for other things. If you think you have lead in your soil, you can ask them to test that. They may or may not be able to do it. So those are the things you will get out of a soil test. So my other thought about Eric's question, about minerals, is you can purchase things like green sand, which are a type of soil that contains nutrients that as that as it breaks down over time, those nutrients become available to plants. A problem with adding things like greensand is it takes hundreds of years for them to break down. So that's typically not a source of nutrients. So no, you don't want to add minerals as a source of nutrients. Unless, let's say, your pH is way out of whack, then you would add lime. Llme considered a mineral. it's a mined product. Or, sulfur to modify your pH. There are other mineral uses in soil. I can't think of any more.
Farmer Fred 14:33
zinc, copper and iron. are they considered minerals?
Debbie Flower 14:37
Good question. They're elements. Yeah. Lime is calcium or calcium sulfate, calcium carbonate. So I guess, Eric, if we're not answering your question, call back and verify. Tell us more.
Farmer Fred 14:50
Get a soil test and see what they say about what your current soil condition is. I'm staring at a soil test. I had the University of Massachusetts doing my backyard soil back into 2017, and it tested the soil pH numbers there, and the macronutrients: the phosphorus, potassium, along with calcium, magnesium and sulfur. Frankly, nitrogen results are kind of ridiculous, because all soils are low in nitrogen.
Debbie Flower 15:16
Because it travels so easily in water and air.
Farmer Fred 15:20
Yeah, and becomes a gas before you know it.
Debbie Flower 15:22
But what's nice is they're giving you the value they found and an optimum range.
Farmer Fred 15:26
right. And the pH was 7.3. Just like blood tests from the doctor, except they don't call me back for checkups on the soil. they should. but micronutrients such as boron, manganese, zinc, copper, iron, aluminum lead, it even has a number for cation exchange. And base saturation. I mean, a lot of these things are very collegiate and technical. But they have a nice bar graph at the very bottom that shows you the main ingredients - phosphorus, potassium, calcium, and magnesium - whether it's very low, low optimum, or above optimum. And apparently I have overfed my soil.
Debbie Flower 16:09
That's common, that's very clear. And especially with the calcium, magnesium, phosphorus,
Farmer Fred 16:16
The potassium was okay. This really comes down to taking the soil sample correctly.
Debbie Flower 16:24
Yes, it does. Absolutely.
Farmer Fred 16:27
And we should talk a little bit about that. all these places will give you explicit instructions on how to take it. don't bypass those instructions, because it can alter the results you get, and may send you down the wrong path. One of the simplest things that they will tell you is, if you're using a scoop, make sure it's a plastic scoop and not a metal scoop.
Debbie Flower 16:51
Or you might leave flakes of metal, and they'll detect those. Use clean tools, a clean bucket, don't take what's on the surface, you always want to scrape the surface clear, you don't want the plants that are there, you don't want the mulch that is there. get down to soil.
Farmer Fred 17:11
And to even ensure that you get a good sample, maybe remove an entire plug of soil . Go down eight or nine inches, and then lift up that whole thing and then take your sample from inside that. That's a lot of digging, that's a lot of digging. And to make it even more digging, that sample that you send them should be a sampler of multiple holes in your garden, right.
Debbie Flower 17:38
So if you want the whole vegetable garden, don't take it from the edges, take it from a variety of spots within the vegetable garden and mix them together. So if you manage the area, the whole area the same way , mulch it the same way, you fertilize it the same way, you water it the same way. Then, you take it from a variety of places in that area. If you have a specific area that is a problem, it's managed differently somehow, then isolate that and take your samples from there.
Farmer Fred 18:10
Yeah, if you are dealing with a particular problem, and you want to get a soil test on just do it in that particular spot. But be very careful in taking those samples, follow the directions. It should be not completely dry, but fairly dry soil.
Debbie Flower 18:25
Yeah, they used to dry them in an oven. Where did I see that? Plant science laboratories, they take your sample and dry it in an oven and work on it.
Farmer Fred 18:35
Whatever you're using to do all this, make sure that there's no metal involved, you want a plastic bucket, a plastic trowel.
Debbie Flower 18:44
And if you contact them, they will send you a container to ship it in as well.
Farmer Fred 18:49
Some don't. Others will just say put it in a plastic bag, okay, double bag it, and ship it that way. But make sure it meets their parameters as far as how much. they may want a full cup. So that might be a fairly sizable number of samples that you'd be sampling from and try to take the samples equally from from all locations from all the different locations. But yeah, collecting it. It's all part of the scientific process.
Debbie Flower 19:15
Yes. garbage in garbage out.
Farmer Fred 19:18
There you go, Eric. Hope that helps. get a soil test done. And like I say, those three universities do offer nice, economical soil testing packages. Massachusetts Amherst, Colorado State and Texas A&M. So check it out. Debbie, thanks for doing some digging with us.
Debbie Flower 19:36
Yeah, enjoyed it.
Farmer Fred 19:46
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Farmer Fred 20:54
If you really want to demonstrate to your friends what a great investment your greenhouse is. Well, here's a little trick. Serve them home grown tomatoes on New Year's Day.
Now here's what you'll need to do to grow greenhouse tomatoes for the winter.
First of all, you need to choose the right tomato. For the typical hobby greenhouse, that greenhouse might be eight by five, or eight by 10, or eight by 12.
The cool season determinant tomatoes are the varieties that do best. They tend to be fairly compact plants that are under four feet tall. They don't put on lots of growth after they set fruit. determinant tomatoes usually ripen at the same time. So choose several tomatoes that will ripen at different times, going from seed to fruit in 50 to 70 days and that minimize any disease problems. Choose tomatoes that have built in disease resistance, they'll have letters like VFNT. V for verticillium wilt resistance, F for fusarium resistance, and N for nematode resistance, T for tobacco mosaic virus, and A for alternaria fungus resistance.
And here's the expensive part, you're going to need a warm greenhouse. so whether you warm your greenhouse via electricity or gas, you're going to need to keep that greenhouse warm, even at night. To grow tomatoes in a greenhouse, you need to maintain a nighttime temperature range of 55 to 70 degrees, preferably above 60 degrees for tomatoes. daytime temperatures should be in the 75 to 85 degree range.
Tomatoes need light. there isn't that much sun in the wintertime it's kind of low in the horizon. So if you haven't installed a greenhouse yet, think about where it should be, to get the best advantage of a low angled sun during the cold months.
Make sure the building isn't shaded by any evergreen trees or other structures.
You will need artificial light to aid the process. There are many artificial lighting systems available. we've talked in the past about led systems. fluorescent lights are probably the most economical you can use for 40 watt 48 inch long fluorescent tubes side by side, keeping them about eight to 12 inches above the plant. Although standard shop lights are okay. Investing in grow Lux wide spectrum fluorescent tubes will give your tomatoes more of the light spectrum that they can use. And you're going to find that same light spectrum in LED lights as well. The choice is yours.
And of course you're going to be planting in the greenhouse soil. But there are issues with that. if you plant directly in the soil that's at the bottom of the greenhouse, that soil needs to drain readily. Make sure it's been amended with organic matter and isn't compacted. Building raised beds into the floor of your greenhouse works best. Make the size of the raised beds about eight to 16 inches high, at least 18 inches wide. The bed can be framed by a number of things including untreated wood blocks, bricks, or whatever your imagination tells you.
You can even grow tomatoes in five gallon pots, but larger works better, such as half barrels. and if you don't want to spend money on half barrels, a five gallon or a 15 gallon pot does wonders.
And another great container choice, if you'll excuse the plug, is Smart Pots. These flexible fabric containers can grow anything you want in a greenhouse in the wintertime, summertime too, but fill it with the best potting soil you can find. there's a lot of good brands on the market. Ask around, do your homework before you buy a lot of potting soil.
The ideal time to get your winter tomato started actually from seed is late September, but you can get started on it now.
Keep the seed beds evenly moist. Although the cooler temperatures of the fall and winter will cut down on the amount of water that tomatoes need, a drip system connected to a timer will ensure that the plants get the moisture they need. Usually that’s four to eight gallons of water per week per plant. That should be plenty.
Plants also tend to slow down their growth in the colder months. So cut your dosage of your favorite tomato fertilizer by half and maybe apply it once a month.
So how do you pollinate your tomato plants? Well, in nature, bees and the wind do most of the tomato pollination. In the greenhouse, you can accomplish that same task by either gently shaking or holding an old electric toothbrush next to the plant, or twirling a small brush inside a tomato flower to transfer the pollen.
And having a running fan is a great idea because not only will it help the plants pollinate, It will also help develop a sturdier plant.
Now here's the part they don't like to tell you about. The pests in a greenhouse. Whiteflies can be the toughest challenge. Monitor populations with yellow sticky traps. When you catch a few, take action. Maybe insecticidal soap or narrow range oils are effective, as is a blast of water applied on a regular basis on all the leaf surfaces. And frankly, if one of those tomato plants is heavily infested with white flies, just get rid of the plant, put it in the trash, don't compost it, put it in the trash.
Alright, and here's why you tuned in: which greenhouse tomato varieties are best for the colder months? There are several. All of these are determinant varieties. they ripen between 54 and 66 days, 68 days and the plants themselves don't get that big, maybe three, four feet, maybe five feet at the most.
So some of my favorites that I've used over the years include Bush Early Girl, Bush Beefsteak, Oregon Spring V, Polar Baby, Prairie Fire, Red Robin, Sub Arctic Maxi, Tumbler, and 506 Bush. 506 Bush only gets 18 inches tall, and they're fairly drought tolerant too, and they actually produce medium sized tomatoes.
And by the way, the tomatoes we're talking about get maybe at most six ounce tomatoes, some might get up to eight ounces. But generally speaking, four to six ounces is the usual size for many of these tomatoes. Cherry tomatoes, of course, do well in a greenhouse in the wintertime. But remember, most cherry tomato plants are indeterminate, which means they will just fill your greenhouse with a nice green jungle, so look for cherry tomato varieties that don’t take up much room. I'll have a link to more information in today's show notes.
Farmer Fred 27:13
If you listened to our chat with citrus grower Lance Walheim about citrus infused beverages, you may have heard him mention that the zest or the rind can have a strong aroma even if that citrus tree is grown indoors. In the next Beyond the Garden Basics newsletter, Lance has the tips for successfully growing a citrus plant indoors, no matter where you live.
Find a subscription link to the newsletter in today’s show notes, or visit our website, Garden Basics dot net, where you can sign up to have the free, Beyond the Garden Basics newsletter and podcast delivered to your inbox each Friday. Also at Garden Basics dot net, you can listen to any of our previous editions of the Garden Basics podcast, as well as read a transcript of the podcast episode you are listening to now.
For current newsletter subscribers, look for How To Grow Citrus Indoors in the next Beyond the Garden Basics newsletter, coming out on the morning of Friday, September 30th, in your email. Take a deeper dive into gardening, with the Beyond the Garden Basics newsletter. And it’s free. Find the link in today’s show notes or at garden basics dot net.
Farmer Fred 28:26
We’re going to our cool season podcast schedule, beginning in October. So, Garden Basics With Farmer Fred will come out once a week, on Fridays. But the podcast will be longer, up to an hour long. Plus the newsletter podcast, that comes with the Beyond the Basics newsletter, will continue every week, also on Fridays. Both are free and are brought to you by Smart Pots and Dave Wilson Nursery. The Garden Basics podcast is available wherever podcasts are handed out, including Garden Basics dot net. And you can sign up for the Beyond the Garden Basics newsletter and podcast at our website, GardenBasics dot net. or at the link in today’s show notes. And thank you so much for listening.
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