315 TRANSCRIPT Chickens, HPAI Disease
Farmer Fred 0:00
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Farmer Fred
Welcome to the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred podcast. If you're just a beginning gardener or you want good gardening information, you've come to the right spot.
Farmer Fred
Maybe you’re thinking of starting a new hobby, by adding a chicken or two or three to your backyard; or maybe you’re already a seasoned home chicken owner. You’ll want to hear today’s episode. Urban chicken consultant and certified poultry inspector Cherie Sintes-Glover of ChickensForEggs.com has advice on how to choose a chick from your local feed or farm store. After all, your neighbors may not appreciate it if you have a backyard full of roosters. Cherie has tips to avoid that pitfall. Also, she discusses a poultry disease that is ravaging several states currently. It’s HPAI - Highly Pathogenic Avian Influenza. HPAI. It’s a serious disease and requires a rapid response because it’s highly contagious and often fatal to chickens. So, how can you help your flock cut its risk of contracting this decimating disease? Cherie has some good advice on that.
It’s all in Episode 315 of today’s Garden Basics - Choosing Backyard Chickens and What is HPAI Disease?
We’re podcasting from Barking Dog Studios here in the beautiful Abutilon Jungle in Suburban Purgatory, it’s the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred podcast, brought to you today by Smart Pots and Dave Wilson Nursery. Let’s go!
Choosing Backyard Chicks. What is HPAI Disease? Pt. 1
Farmer Fred
Have you heard of HPAI? What's that? it's Highly Pathogenic Avian Influenza. It can devastate poultry. It has taken hold in several states including here in California. It has caused poultry and poultry products to require permits to enter, leave, or move within an HPAI control area. It is spread by migrating fowl to your backyard birds. Controlling it isn't easy, and it is deadly to your backyard flock. There are several counties in California that have control areas, as well as other states such as Colorado, Indiana, Kansas, Michigan, Nebraska, North Carolina, Ohio and South Dakota. Millions of birds across the nation with HPAI have had to be destroyed. And if you see a rise in the price of chickens or eggs, that could very well be one of the reasons. Highly Pathogenic Avian Influenza, which means that poultry owners, both commercial and backyard growers, need to practice what is called biosecurity. What is that? And how do you know that when you go shopping for chicks, as you might be doing as the weather warms up? You might go into a feed store or a Tractor Supply Company store and you hear this cute little “cheep cheep cheep” going on and you go over to see what it is. Oh, look at that cute little chicks! Let's buy some! How do you know they don't have HPAI disease? Well, that's why we're talking with Cherie Sintes Glover. She is the proprietor of the website, chickensforeggs.com. She is an urban chicken consultant. She is a certified poultry inspector and does a lot of public speaking, including March 15 through 16th in Alabama, in Columbia, Alabama, at the National Backyard Poultry Conference. Cherie, let's talk about biosecurity. This avian influenza is more deadly than the avian influenza that was going around a few years ago. Plus, let’s talk about how to choose chicks and take care of them. That's a lot to talk about. Be my guest!
Cherie Sintes Glover 4:08
Hi Fred. I was so glad to talk about this because biosecurity is part of my passion. And back in the day, I don't think we really even thought about it or worried about it. And it wasn't until something called the Exotic Newcastle disease came out and that was back in the in the 2000s. I think it was 2007 or 2008, right around that time. Maybe 2006. And it was the first time, or the first time in a long time that California would almost just shut down when it came to poultry. And it was because this disease at that time was Exotic Newcastle Disease. But if you just kept backyard chickens, it wasn't a big deal. And when that came about it just created such a standstill with poultry shows, with the fairs, and expos. That's when the CDFA (California Dept of Food and Agriculture) and other groups actually put together educational materials to better educate the public about how easily something can be transmitted or spread. So avian flu is scary because we hear about it in the news. And we wonder why. And it's because it has such an impact on commercial poultry producers. So everywhere we get our eggs, where we get our meat chickens, all those dozens and dozens of roasted chickens that you see in Costco. It's that's what it impacts because if those producers have to euthanize their chickens because of an avian flu outbreak, it's significant. It paralyzes the industry, and it'll have a trickle down effect, even to us as consumers. But then you add on the extra impact of what does for me as a backyard chicken owner. We here in this part of Central California and Northern Northern California, we happen to be under the main Pacific Flyway that waterfowl travel. It's when you all see all the geese flying down south and they come back up. And even here, where I am just kind of south and east of Sacramento, I don't know how many times a day I'll see flocks of geese, I can hear them coming, they fly over and where I happen to live, I have a little bit more risk of exposure. And that's because we have ponds, right? We have lakes, we have rivers, we have places where the waterfowl like to congregate and maybe have a pitstop. That's the part of the avian flu that is so dangerous. The migrating bird doesn't necessarily have to be sick, they can be carriers and look perfectly healthy, perfectly fine. But they can transmit that to our backyard flocks. There's two main ways that that can happen. Either you could actually have that waterfowl come into your area, your yard, your property, and spread the disease through respiratory as well as through feces, droppings, that kind of thing. Or we as individuals can be that kind of vector. And that includes things like, maybe we go for a hike, right? How many times do we go bicycling, I'll use you as an example, Fred.
Farmer Fred
Sure.
Cherie Sintes Glover
So your bicycling, maybe you're going down a trail you're down by Folsom Lake. And, there happens to be waterfowl out there. If you have a backyard flock of chickens, there's a possibility that even the tires on your bicycle could bring in and spread something like the avian flu. So even ourselves, our shoes or clothing, all of those things can actually put our own backyard flocks at risk if we've been in areas where wild birds or waterfowl have been.
Farmer Fred 7:53
So I guess one step for the backyard owner is to have several pairs of shoes, and especially the ones around where the chickens are, that you would change in to, to go work on the chickens. Get out of your traveling shoes and put on your chicken shoes.
Cherie Sintes Glover 8:08
Exactly. So there’s a lot of chicken keepers. What I'd suggest to them is have either a foot or shoe bath or wash. It's basically a tub, you put in a an old mat and you you add some bleach in some water, you can do a foot/shoe bath, but you want to change your clothing. If I do consultations, for instance, I actually will not visit my chickens, my own chickens. the day that I do a consultation. And I have separate footwear that I wear, even coveralls that I'll wear, or an apron on when I inspect or help people with their chickens and their flocks. Those clothes immediately goes into a bag and that goes nowhere near where my own home flock is located. So immediately washing and sanitizing everything. If you happen to go to one of the five avian labs, the diagnostic labs that are throughout California. iI you're dropping off a specimen, a poultry specimen, for diagnostics, they actually have a place that you pull up with your vehicle and they spray your tires before you even kind of enter the main part of the facility. And that's because of how important that biosecurity is. Even as simple as who do you allow to come onto your property. Who has access to your birds, to your backyard chickens? I have friends that are duck hunters. Duck season is October through the end of January. And if you're a duck hunter and you actually have a backyard flock of egg laying chickens for eggs, they could be at risk. You're out there in the hunting environment. And it's really important to take those steps to literally have a change of clothes; you don't even come into your home with those hunting clothes on, because of the fact that you could be the vector. You could be the person that's exposing your own chickens to the avian flu. Now a good thing what we know is that the avian flu does not usually infect humans, right? They have had cases in the past, mainly in south southeast Asia. They have not had a case of human infection here in the U.S. that I know of. So a lot of times when we see the news and we see the avian flu, we think oh my gosh, is it like Corona? It wasn't like COVID. And no, you're probably not going to contract avian flu from your chickens or from the geese that landed at your pond, but your chickens are the ones that are at risk.
Farmer Fred 10:30
Are there other poultry that can catch this? HPAI, highly pathogenic avian influenza. Besides chickens, who else could it possibly infect? Doves, ducks, geese, partridges? Quail? Turkeys?
Cherie Sintes Glover 10:49
They do. So that's one of the hardest parts about being a backyard poultry owner. How do you control that? How do you control everything that your birds are exposed to? Because they're foraging, you're letting them free range. That's always the big thing. The birds are able to go and forage and eat all the great bugs and those kinds of things. But in that, there is an inherent risk. I was watching one news report where a woman happened to have a backyard flock of chickens. And she lived right across the street from a poultry producer, a commercial poultry producer, that had been shut down. And they had to euthanize all of their birds because of the avian flu. And they interviewed her and they asked her, are you worried? Are you concerned? Because you're literally right across the street. And she said something that piqued my interest. She said, “there's only so much that you can control.” And at the end of the day, that's what it is. I think as far as the CDFA, as far as the state veterinarian, I think they want to make sure people are knowledgeable. They want people to understand what kinds of biosecurity, security steps, you can take to have control. So that way you can at least reduce some of that risk. Can you eliminate the risk entirely? I don't think so, especially living where we are, especially being under the main Pacific Flyway. I think it's a challenge.
Farmer Fred 12:17
You could build one heck of a large netted area, I guess.
Cherie Sintes Glover 12:22
You could, and some people do. My own chicken coop for my egg layers, my chickens, are in a completely closed run, a chicken run. But I let them forage. I let them out. They free range, and then they go back in there at night. So they are definitely exposed to other wild birds. I have ducks and a goose. Over at my duck pen, which is actually on the other side from where my chickens are located. And one year, I went out there and I was counting them. And I thought wait a minute, I have extra birds! Come to find out I have a wild feral pair of Muscovy ducks that had actually landed, stopped by and had dinner with my ducks. And that's a perfect example of how even something as innocent as having a couple of ducks in your backyard that might attract other waterfowl to come and stop by. So really, what do you do? What control do you have? Yes, you can net up your entire chicken run. You can keep your chickens isolated. And the commercial poultry producers, that's what they focus on. But even them being in those enclosed environments, where they monitor who's coming in and out, they have protective clothing or PPE for their employees to wear, even then they managed to get exposed, which is really scary. Because even with that kind of confinement, that kind of production facility and obviously all of the cleaning protocols, all the biosecurity in place, and even they will have outbreaks. So what do you do? What do you do?
Farmer Fred 14:05
Highly Pathogenic Avian Influenza. For the person who has no knowledge about chickens or this disease, but might be doing some chick shopping this late winter or early spring, how do they know that the chicks that they're looking at in that cute little container in the feed store or at the local farm supply store, how do you know those little chicks haven't been infected?
Cherie Sintes Glover 14:34
That's a very good question, Fred. How do you know that the chicks that you're buying haven't been exposed to the avian flu? Luckily, there are restrictions in place. So there are restrictions and there’s documentation having to do with the movement of chicks or birds. But the good thing is that a baby chick that you finding in the feed store likely has not had the kind of exposure that they're going to that they would need to become infected. So those chicks, they're hatched in a hatchery, they're typically shipped out to the feed store. And once they reach that feed store, there's actually a reason why they typically will not let you right up to where the birds are housed. They have little chicken brooders. Usually if you go into the feed stores, they usually have that area fenced off a little bit. They are trying to limit that exposure to you. And that's because you could very well be carrying or transmitting on your shoes or clothing that avian flu, if you haven't been following good biosecurity protocols. The chicks that you buy, they have had limited exposure, there's a good chance that they'll be perfectly fine once you take them home.
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Choosing Backyard Chickens, Pt. 2
Farmer Fred
Let's get back to our conversation with chicken expert Cherie Sintes-Glover and figure out how can you tell a rooster from a hen, when they're just chicks. Your biggest issue as a future chicken owner, a backyard chicken owner, and many localities now have laws that say it's okay to have backyard chickens. But they better not be roosters. So how do you pick one that isn't a rooster?
Cherie Sintes Glover 18:38
Luckily there's a lot of breeds that we can we can actually determine what sex they are. And they will label them. So when you go to the feed store, you're looking at all of these different brooders, you can hear the baby chicks, they have the heat lamps going, and they're going to typically be marked. So you should know that if you see a sign that says “straight run”, there's a good chance that they're both males and females in that bin together. And it's kind of the luck of the draw, right? So you have a 50-50 chance, but a lot of people will swear that you'll buy five chicks and four will end up being roosters, right? Or males. So you take your chances with this, anytime you pick your chicks from a bin that says “standard run” or “straight run”.
Farmer Fred 19:25
And I imagine that the standard run or straight run choices are your discount chicks?
Cherie Sintes Glover 19:30
Not necessarily. It really kind of depends on the breed. So some breeds are easier to sex early on than others. And so because of that, there's even chicks out there that are different colors depending on if they're male or female. So you may have the same breed and that's why they call them sex-links. It is actually a common name for for that type of hen or chicken because they'll either be black or white or yellow, depending on what sex the bird is, but it's not that way for all of the breeds of chickens. But a lot of people, some people don't care, they will take the straight run chicks. If they end up being males, they'll either process them as meat birds, and then put them in the freezer when they're old enough or have gained enough weight, or they'll take them to an auction, that kind of thing. So the other option is you will find bins that are labeled pullets. And if you see that word “pullets”, that means that those birds - hopefully, fingers crossed - have been identified as females. And so you're more likely that those should be all pullets that you're taking home. Now, you are at the mercy of maybe whoever unpacked those chicks, and you're thinking, from the hatchery and the way they're packaged and packed up, the chicks are shipped out to when they get to the feed store and put in the bins, you're hoping that none of them accidentally escaped or maybe got put in the wrong bin. But it does happen, right? It does happen when you pick those from the pullet bin. And you ask yourself, why is this male in there, a rooster? So it can happen, and it's part of the risk of bringing new baby chicks home. There's always a chance that a couple might be roosters, a couple here and there might be roosters. Luckily, we have people that are willing to buy them, a lot of people are willing to, maybe process them and put them in their freezer, or we have different poultry auctions, actually, where you can go and put them up for sale. So there are ways that that you can find homes for those roosters, because nobody, especially if you're living in an urban environment, you never want roosters. It's just not a great idea to have a rooster.
Farmer Fred 21:36
Unless you live in Yuba City.
Cherie Sintes Glover 21:37
Oh, yes! Do you know I was driving through Yuba City and we were stopped at the Carl's Jr. to use the washroom. And oh my gosh, there were chickens everywhere. And we took a picture because we were like, where did these chickens come from? And they're just i becoming kind of like, Fair Oaks? I think Fair Oaks has their own chickens.
Farmer Fred 22:00
Correct. But Yuba City! I went up there for a bike ride. spent two nights in a motel up there because it was 100 mile ride. But at 3am, all of a sudden, I hear crowing. and I'm in a motel. It was a nice motel. And all of a sudden, I mean, this rooster is right outside my door!
Farmer Fred 22:18
And I brought this up to the clerk in the morning. And I said, “Now I'm probably not the only person to have mentioned this”. And she said, “You're not the only person we get it every day.” Wow. Chickens are a protected species in Yuba City, and they're allowed to roam. And every motel in town has chickens roaming the parking lot, the clerk said. But that's neither here nor there. My question to you is, at what age will a rooster reveal itself to be a rooster?
Cherie Sintes Glover 22:48
it depends on the breed. So just like laying hens, typically, your average laying hen will start to lay eggs once they've reached anywhere from five to eight months of age, that's when they've kind of reached that maturity. Same thing goes for roosters. And chickens. When you're raising them, there's this really kind of weird transformation. They hatch and they’re little fluffy, cute, adorable chicks, then by the time they're two months old, they start to get their feathers in, they kind of look like you teenagers. And they look kind of scruffy because their feathers are all wacky and trying to grow in. And by the time they get to the four or five months range of age, that's when sometimes for some breeds that mature a little bit earlier, you'll find the roosters starting to try and crow. For other breeds, it's a little bit later. But what I noticed more is their behavior early on. So when you have a brooder of chicks, and you're watching them, what you'll find is if there's any males in that group, the male chicks will tend to try to herd the other chickens. So they have those behaviors and those characteristics, sometimes early on, where you can see how they're trying to kind of be the boss of the brooder. And if you see that and you see that behavior, there's a chance that could be a rooster. Now there's that period of time where the males and the females no matter what the breed, they look very much alike. And it's not until those more adult bird feathers start to come in that you might see changes. So for instance, in the tail feathers, or the sickle feathers, even around the neck, and even around the way the comb develops, it might be a sign. It really just depends on the breed. Typically, by the time they're five to six months old, you're going to have a pretty good idea. They're either going to start to try to crow, maybe even a little sooner, maybe a little later. And it doesn't sound at all like a crow. They'll angle their bodies and they will try to produce sound. And it will sound a little gargled and a little kind of like for guys, when get that certain age and the voice cracks, right?
Farmer Fred 25:00
Yeah, I’m still waiting.
Cherie Sintes Glover 25:03
You're what? You’re still waiting? So sometimes it sounds really awkward and it sounds really like, “What was that?” like almost like something's dying. Sometimes you have to wait till then to figure it out. I raise Polish bantams that have a big crest of feathers on their heads. And there you have a very small window, within like the first two days after the chick hatches, to be able to sex them by looking at the wing feathers. And then after that, it's kind of a toss up until they actually reach a more mature age. It can be tough. And that's it. That is like the number one question asked at all these different chicken groups and forums, it's almost always especially when we get into the spring months, when people have hatched chicks, or they've picked up some from the feed store. It's people posting pictures of their chickens and trying to figure out, “Can you tell me if this is a rooster?” And I wish it was that easy. But a lot of times it isn't.
Farmer Fred 26:00
We have talked about in the past about the different varieties and which are best for children or which are best for egg laying and all that (Episode 260). We're not going to have time to get into all of that. But you have in the past mentioned several resources that are good for information for new chicken owners, that basically covers everything that they would need to know.
Cherie Sintes Glover 26:21
Yeah, so you know, what's so great is that the Cooperative Extension for California, if you're looking, you know, looking online, Dr. Maurice Pitesky actually created a whole series of “Backyard Basics for Poultry” which I actually just got into myself and I thought, this is fantastic. So we didn't have that back in the day. You know, there's a lot of videos on YouTube and valuating to see what kind of information is out there because there is a lot of misinformation. But if you have kids, oh my gosh, definitely definitely get them enrolled in 4H or Grange. Older kids can join FFA, to learn more about backyard poultry or raising chickens. Any of those youth organizations are a wealth of information. And then as adults, they’ll be more discerning about what they read or watch. I always tend to go with the universities, or Cooperative Extension offices for more information, or even go to things like the Cooptastic conference. it's the annual National Backyard Poultry Conference, and it's a great way to meet other poultry owners from across the nation to learn everything from basics to advanced techniques with your chickens. If you're local to me, you could even reach out to me and use me as a resource as a consultant. And that's what people typically hire me to do. They want someone to come to them, or do a consultation through Zoom and kind of learn the basics. It's like having a private class on backyard chicken keeping. Because sometimes it's not as simple as just building a coop and putting some chickens in there. There's sometimes more to it, especially if you're dealing with ordinances and you just want someone to kind of help you through what you need. And that will give you a better idea of what are you getting yourself into with getting a backyard flock.
Farmer Fred 28:06
Well, let's cover some of the basics that you've mentioned here. You mentioned that the University of California reference, from UC cooperative extension called Backyard Basics of Poultry. Well, sure enough, I just entered into a search engine, backyard basics of poultry, followed by the letters, UC ANR, which is the University of California Ag and Natural Resources. And sure enough, that page popped right up. And you mentioned yourself and your website is chickensforeggs.com where people can find out more information not only about you, but about that National Backyard Poultry Conference, Cooptastic. You will be speaking there in March, down in Alabama?
Cherie Sintes Glover 28:48
Yes, it'll be it'll be a great time. Because just the fact that you're meeting other people and they're interested and I would not be surprised if I see everybody in different types of chicken T shirts. Yeah, as you know, just being able to talk to experts that either have the experience or the education and knowledge that they're willing to share. And that's huge. I want to mention that the Avian Science program (at UC Davis), they're actually in the process of putting together a really cool app. They had an app in the past but I think they're phasing that out and they're just getting ready to do a test, or trial run for a brand new app for backyard poultry enthusiasts. So there's a lot of resources, especially when it comes to technology. That, and what we can find online. But I always use critical thinking skills when it comes to that. If something sounds too good to be true, it probably is. There's a lot of misinformation out there. But there's also some really great stuff too. So be willing to educate yourself and find those great resources online.
Farmer Fred 29:47
In the past, you've even mentioned books that are good for the new chicken owner.
Cherie Sintes Glover 29:52
Oh my gosh, my favorite one is City Chicks. And it's because it's packed full of all of this great information whether you live in an urban area or a rural environment. But they especially focus in on someone that's maybe also a home gardener and how to kind of foster that. That relationship between having backyard chickens and having a wonderful garden at the same time, because sometimes that can be tricky. Another one is by the Storey series by Gail Damerow, and I'm probably pronouncing her last name incorrectly. But she has a wonderful chicken book, Storey’s Guide to Raising Chickens. And she also does a chicken health guide. Those are fantastic. And believe it or not, even Raising Chickens for Dummies book is full of information, some great books out there.
Farmer Fred 30:40
Very good. And we should point out that City Chicks, that first book you mentioned, actually goes by the full title “City Chicks, Keeping micro flocks of laying hens as garden helpers, compost creators bio recyclers and local food suppliers.” And it's written by Patricia Foreman. But I guess the short name for that book is City Chicks.
Cherie Sintes Glover 31:02
City Chicks. Yes, that's my number one book that I love. I love that book.
Farmer Fred 31:07
And the other book that you mentioned is Storey’s Guide to Raising Chickens by Gail Damerow. So if you're looking for good books that you can go through at your leisure to figure out how to raise your chickens, check the Storey’s guide to raising chickens, and the book City Chicks. Both would be very good sources to have handy. That is, If you still have books. (pause) Kids! you know, your electricity might go out. And all you're gonna have left are books. So, read a book, thank you. This is brought to you by your local publisher. OK, I’m done. Anything you want to add?
Cherie Sintes Glover 31:42
Oh my gosh, I have to tell you. I went into the feed store yesterday to pick up some chicken feed. And I overheard a woman that was in there, she wanted to get a bunny rabbit for Easter, for her child. And it's this time of year, when people are going to feed stores, they're seeing the chicks are starting to arrive and they're just adorable. And you want so much to take them home. Because you've always wanted to raise chickens, but you just haven’t. But you know all these other people that have. But there's more to it than that. You want to have it staged at home, you want to have your coop ready, you want to have your brooder ready, there's so much to prepare. Don't be that person that takes them home without doing a little bit of research, or taking the class, getting a little bit of knowledge about what you need to be successful with them. Because those first few weeks with those baby chicks is just so important. And you want to be successful, right? Nothing is worse than having it not work out as planned, right? So do a little research.
Farmer Fred 32:44
Don't just take the chicks home from the store in a paper bag, because you'll be back at the store to get everything else you need.
Cherie Sintes Glover 32:51
Yes. Have your breeder all ready. Think about what breeds you want, because there's so many to choose from. And it can be a really joyous occasion or it can be a really devastating occasion, if things don't go well. Don't be that person.
Farmer Fred 33:07
So yes, do your homework first. There's a lot to go into. And if you have a chance to visit Cherie Sintes-Glover and attend one of her talks that she has frequently around Central and Northern California or in the case of March 15 and 16th, in Alabama. You may want to go to that national backyard poultry conference, and more information about that, which is called coop tastic, you can find out at chickensforeggs.com which is Cherie Sintes-Glover's homepage, with a lot of good chicken raising information. Cherie, it's always a pleasure talking with you about chickens and I hope everybody has a good winter and a good spring with their backyard flock, and you have a good time in Alabama!
Cherie Sintes Glover 33:53
Thank you. Thank you so much for having me, Fred.
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Want to leave us a question? Again, check the links at gardenbasics.net. Also, when you click on any episode at garden basics.net, you’ll find a link to Speakpipe, where you can leave us an audio question without a making a phone call. Or, go to them directly: speakpipe.com/gardenbasics. You want to call us? We have that number posted at gardenbasics.net. Spoiler alert: it’s 916-292-8964, 916-292-8964. Email? Sure! Send it, along with your pictures to fred at farmerfred.com. Or again, go to gardenbasics.net and get that link. And if you send us a question, be sure to tell us where you’re gardening, because all gardening is local. Find it all at gardenbasics.net.
Farmer Fred
Garden Basics with Farmer Fred comes out every Tuesday and Friday and it's brought to you by Smart Pots and Dave Wilson Nursery. Garden Basics is available wherever podcasts are handed out. For more information about the podcast, visit our website, gardenbasics.net. And that's where you can find out about the free Garden Basics newsletter, Beyond the Basics. And thank you so much for listening
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