179 The Poop Loop: How Mother Nature Feeds Your Garden

The Poop Loop. No, we’re not talking about the reference in SpongeBob Squarepants (but we will have a link to that in the show notes). We’re not referring to a leash accessory that holds your dog's poop bag so you can finally be hands free to chat on your phone during your daily walks! (you’ll have to look that one up yourself). Nor is this an explanation of composting toilets. You’re going to have to go deep into the Google search engine to find out what we are talking about on this episode. It’s how Mother Nature feeds your plants, and what you can do to aid that process. The result? A healthier, more productive garden. Organic advocate, soil pedologist and underground poop expert Steve Zien has the details.

We’re podcasting from Barking Dog Studios here in the beautiful Abutilon Jungle in Suburban Purgatory. It’s the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred podcast, brought to you today by Smart Pots and Dave Wilson Nursery. And we will do it all in under 30 minutes. Let’s go!

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Raised beds, and mulch, mulch, mulch

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SpongeBob Squarepants and the Poop Loop
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Chapters

• 1:30 The Poop Loop
• 11:00 Smart Pots!
• 12:50 Dave Wilson Nursery
• 14:01 The Poop Loop, pt. 2
• 26:49 Garden Basics Newsletter, "Beyond the Basics"

Transcript

GB 179 TRANSCRIPT The Poop Loop

Farmer Fred  0:00  

Garden Basics with Farmer Fred is brought to you by Smart Pots, the original lightweight, long lasting fabric plant container. it's made in the USA. Visit SmartPots.com slash Fred for more information and a special discount, that's SmartPots.com/Fred. Welcome to the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred podcast. If you're just a beginning gardener or you want good gardening information, you've come to the right spot.  

Farmer Fred  0:32  

The Poop Loop. No, we’re not talking about the reference in SpongeBob Squarepants (but we will have a link to that in the show notes). We’re not referring to a leash accessory that holds your dog's poop bag so you can finally be hands free! (you’ll have to look that one up yourself), nor is this an explanation of composting toilets. No, you’re going to have to go deep into the Google search engine to find out what we are talking about on this episode. It’s how Mother Nature feeds your plants, and what you can do to aid that process. The result? A healthier, more productive garden. Organic advocate, soil pedologist and underground poop expert Steve Zien has the details.  We’re podcasting from Barking Dog Studios here in the beautiful Abutilon Jungle in Suburban Purgatory. It’s the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred podcast, brought to you today by Smart Pots and Dave Wilson Nursery. And we will do it all in under 30 minutes. Let’s go!       

Farmer Fred  1:33  

Don't feed your plants, feed your soil instead. You know, in past episodes, we have gone deep into what makes for a successful plant. And much of that success is soil-related: the soil, all those beneficial critters that are in the root zone. And the better you treat the beneficial critters in the soil, my next guest says, the healthier your plants will be. Because it's all about the soil. So let's turn it over to the Sultan of Soil, the Duke of dirt, the mayor of mycorrhizal activity, soils expert, Steve Zien. Steve, spring gardening has begun, how about helping us get our garden off to a good start?

Steve Zien  2:12  

You mentioned that there's lots of critters living in the soil. And if you have what's called a healthy soil years ago, gardeners wanted that loamy soil. We have now learned that what we really want is a healthy soil, the healthy soil is alive with all these microbes that you just talked about. And to give you an idea of how many there are in a teaspoon of healthy soil, you will find 8 billion microbes. And they're all there helping your plants obtain moisture, obtain nutrients, fight off pests, create a wonderful living soil condition that that is more favorable for plant root development. However, if you've been using synthetic fertilizers and pesticides, rather than a billion microbes, you might find maybe 50 in that teaspoon of soil. So how you manage that soil is so very, very critically important.

Farmer Fred  3:12  

Let's talk about one of your favorite products, the blue crystalline fertilizer stuff. I'm being facetious, of course. But what happens when you take water soluble, synthetic fertilizers and pour it around the ground? What  is the process by which that stuff does good or does not do good?

Steve Zien  3:31  

Well, there are two major problems with synthetic fertilizers. One is salt. They're very, very high in salt. And salt is a dehydrating agent, it sucks the moisture out of anything and everything it comes in contact with. There's a thing called  fertilizer burn. When you put too much synthetic fertilizer down, or you don't water it in enough, the salt content will be so high it will actually suck the moisture right out of your plant roots and kill the plants. Or if it's not quite that bad, it will cause the plants to wilt. Now, if we can do that much damage to a plant, imagine what it's doing to these microscopic organisms that are made out of one cell or just a few cells. It sucks up all of the water and kills them all. The synthetic fertilizers that are high in salts are destroying almost all of the soil biology. Now the other main issue with the synthetic fertilizers is they're water soluble, which means when you apply them on the ground and you irrigate or water them, and if there's any runoff because they dissolve in the water, most of that fertilizer is going to run off the lawn, go across the curb, into the gutter, and directly into our creeks and streams. Also because it's water soluble, when you irrigate, the little bit that  does go into the soil, every time you irrigate, it's going to be pushing that fertilizer right past the root zone. And because there's no soil biology, these synthetic fertilizers have to be right next to where their roots are. And so if you've got a fertilizer, let's say it's got 33% nitrogen, and you put that down, you water it, you irrigate it following label directions, some of its going to run off the soil surface. And so that amount of the fertilizer is gone. The material that moves into the soil, while it's still there next to the roots, most of  that fertilizer is in the soil, it is not close enough for the roots to absorb them. And then the fertilizer will then, with subsequent rain or irrigation, move right past the root zone. And so that 33% Nitrogen, some of its running off, some of it doesn't even get close enough to the roots to get absorbed, and the rest of it leaches beyond the root zone. So even though you've got 33% Nitrogen, the amount that's actually getting into the plant is about one or 2%. If that, so it's not very efficient. You know, everybody thinks that these fertilizers with these big numbers, they're going to get more bang for their buck than the  organic fertilizers. But that's really not the case.

Farmer Fred  6:17  

Sounds like you're trying to blow a hole into my statement that plant roots aren't straws. It sounds like what you're saying is that, in order for that fertilizer to work, it has to be right on top of the roots for the roots to absorb it, I always thought there was some sort of process going on down there that is converting those synthetic fertilizers into a more usable form for the plant.

Steve Zien  6:36  

If you're using organic fertilizers, that's exactly the case. So you've got an organic fertilizer might have 5% Nitrogen, it's low in salt, it's not very water soluble, typically. And so when you put it on the soil surface and water it in, some of its going to go in there, sometimes the worms and the biology will have to work that material into the soil. And it's feeding the soil biology. The soil biology, eats that material, and then through what's called the poop loop, change those nutrients into forms that the plants can utilize. And some of these microbes, for example, the mychorrazal fungi, which are  like long strands, you can get miles of these strands in a thimble full of soil. And they actually attach themselves to the roots, and then go off large distances depending upon whether it's an annual plant or a perennial or like a tree, and they extend the area that the root system can now absorb nutrients. And it gets to the point where there's no place in the soil that's not full of this soil biology that can take the fertile organic fertilizers, the compost, the worm castings that are filtering down into the soil and provide it to the plant. So that if you're using organic fertilizer that has 4% Nitrogen, almost all of that is going to get into your plant. So you're really getting more bang for your buck with an organic fertilizer. I think it's very helpful to do a soil test in the beginning and fertilize appropriately so that, if you might have toxicities, you might have deficiencies. And if you get things in balance at that point, then really all you need to do is is keep adding compost, mulch, and worm castings. I'm a firm believer in worm castings, and you don't mix them in with the soil. You don't want to disturb the soil, you just put them on top. Every time you disturb the soil, you are killing soil biology, and you're setting it back, you're destroying what's called soil structure. And really that's one of the goals that a gardener and landscaper should be doing, is trying to create soil structure and particularly if you have a sandy soil or clay soil. Structure is a variety of different sized pores in your soil. And you want large pores and you want small pores, the small pores and the medium sized pores hold water. The large pores are important because that's where the roots go, that's where the worms move through. But also after you irrigate or after it rains, those large pore spaces, the water in those large pore spaces will get sucked out of there and down by the force of gravity so that you have air in your soil. It's amazing how people water too frequently, filling up all of those pore spaces. They think, "oh my plant needs water". We've got to realize our plant roots also need oxygen and air. And so you need those large pore spaces. And the way you get that variety of pore spaces by creating soil structure, is you don't kill it. Because that destroys the soil structure. But you encourage the beneficial microscopic organisms. The bacteria for example, exude glues. They are little one-celled critters. And if they didn't glue themselves to the particles of soil, every time it rained or  you irrigated, they would get washed below the soil, out of the root zone. So they glue themselves to the soil particles, they produce enough glue so that the sand, silt and clay particles and pieces of organic matter get glued together to form aggregates, creating that variety of space pore size spaces. You get also have things like fungi, which are just a bunch of fun guys and fun gals that are like long threads and they're tying the soil together to create structure. So you really need to do everything you can to encourage these microscopic organisms. You know, there are other critters that could help with this as well. But those are two major players that create soil structure.

Farmer Fred  11:00  

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Farmer Fred  12:50  

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Farmer Fred  14:05  

We're talking with Steve Zien, soil pathologist, owner of Living Resources Company, about soil and the benefits of adding mulch and compost to your soil. Two things we learned from Debbie Flower on her recent appearances on this program and talking about soil include the benefits of mulch. And that mulch has a benefit that I didn't realize before: it stops the rain from destroying those soil particles. The force of rain hitting bare soil can compress the soil by removing those pockets of air. But by keeping a few inches of mulch on top, it takes the hit for the soil from the rain and thus saves the airspaces in those soil particles.

Steve Zien  14:51  

It's called raindrop impact. My guess is you can probably go on the internet and do a search for raindrop impact. The amount of force a single raindrop has, or a drop of irrigation that's flying across the air can, when it hits the ground, can move a soil particle, five feet in the air, and five feet away from where that impact was. It's a huge amount of force. And what it does is, it takes those clay particles and it moves them around in such a manner that all the pore spaces that were on that surface of the soil, they get plugged up with all these fine clay particles, and you get this really slick crust on top of the soil surface that doesn't allow air, doesn't allow water, doesn't allow fertilizer, to move through. And so a lot of times when I talk to people about putting mulch down, if it's on bare soil, I suggest that they first take a metal garden rake and just lightly rake the surface of the soil to break up that surface crust because you probably have that surface crust. And it's really important to break that up. And then you will maximize rapidly the benefits of that mulch. And also if you have a slope, and that raindrop impact hits bare soil, that's how you get erosion, it's going to loosen all of those soil particles from that impact, and they will move down the slope. 

Farmer Fred  16:25  

The other thing we learned from Debbie Flower, and we learned it from you, as well, over the years, is the fact that you don't want to be walking on wet soil because that can compress that soil and also destroy those air pockets.

Steve Zien  16:38  

Well, you can walk on your soil, but you want it to have soil moisture content, when you walk on it,  to be moist. You want to stay off of your soil when it's wet. It's highly  subject to compaction. When you walk on a wet soil,  you're you're making it harder for your plant roots to grow, you're making it hard for the soil biology to function you are eliminating most, of if not all, of those large pore spaces. So you're creating a soil that doesn't breathe very well, that has, when you irrigate, it has a lot of moisture. It has very little air. So then you're likely to start having root disease problems. You  need to stay off the soil when it is wet.

Farmer Fred  17:21  

What if you have a few inches of mulch on your garden? Is it okay if you've got the mulch on the garden to walk over it?

Steve Zien  17:28  

Again, if you just irrigated and that ground is really really wet, I would try and avoid it. The thicker the mulch is, though, the less impact that walking is going to have on that. There will be less compaction. So if you've got six inches, seven inches of  wood chips, where you've got a wide variety of particle sizes, and you got some really nice large pore spaces, they will absorb quite a bit of that pressure from your weight.

Farmer Fred  17:58  

Recently, I was talking with Emily Murphy, author of the book, "Grow Now", and she made an interesting statement, and I've seen things like it from others and I would like to get your impression of this. She was talking about the different mulches to use. And she said, if you're growing woody materials like trees and shrubs, use a woody material mulch like chipped and shredded tree branches. If you're growing a vegetable garden, you want to use mulch made from basically, food. Like worm castings. True or false? And, should I put chips on my vegetable bed?

Steve Zien  18:34  

You can. But the reasoning is that when you put down wood chips, those wood chips are going to decompose. Some wood chips typically have numerous different sized particles, from really, really tiny particles that are going to get moved into the soil relatively quickly. And they've got bigger ones, that are going to last for a longer period of time. That material will feed the soil biology, the best that is associated with woody materials. It's food for the biology that work in association with woody plants. And so it's really really good to put down wood chips around plants that have woody stems, such as trees and shrubs. With the vegetable garden, you can certainly put that down, but you would also want to put down things like worm castings or compost. The worm castings and compost typically are leafy type materials that have been composted either by the composting process or by the worms intestines. It will be more suitable and it will encourage more of the appropriate biology in the soil for those kinds of plants. And so yeah, the kind of mulch you have put down would be best if it's appropriate for the soil biology that will work best with those kinds of plants that you're trying to grow.

Farmer Fred  20:02  

Can I suggest a Solomon-like, compromise here, and perhaps put down compost or worm castings first on your vegetable bed, and then top that with a few inches of a woody mulch?

Steve Zien  20:15  

Yeah, I think that's fine.  that will allow you to, if you're walking on those areas, there's going to be less compaction, like we talked about just a few minutes ago. Any kind of organic matter is going to be helpful. Realize the kind of organic matter you put down is going to encourage particular varieties of microscopic organisms that work better for different kinds of plants.

Farmer Fred  20:40  

What about colored mulches, those are widely available now. Are they good or bad for a garden?

Steve Zien  20:47  

I think the big thing is, what is the source of the color? Are those dyes or paints potentially toxic? Rather than the colored materials, which are typically bark, and not wood chips. Wood chips are far superior material, the bark and those kinds of colored materials, typically, they're only one size, they're large, because they don't have any small particles, they're not going to break down very quickly at all. And so they're not going to be nourishing the soil very much. And that would be the advantage of the wood chips is that you have that variety of particle size, and it starts immediately beginning to feed the soil biology.

Farmer Fred  21:30  

So explain the difference between a bag of bark and a bag of woodchips

Steve Zien  21:37  

A bag of bark is just big hunks of bark  from trees. And they're probably an inch in diameter, maybe a little larger, maybe a little smaller, and there's no fine particle sizes in there, they're just going to sit on the soil surface. And  there are benefits to that. But they're not going to nourish the soil, they're not going to feed the soil biology. When you put down wood chips, when they grind those things up, they're typically grinding branches, big branches, small branches, lots of vegetation. And so the range and particle size is exceptional. And those small particle sized materials are going to start nourishing and feeding the soils. By having small particle sizes to work on the soil surface, where it will encourage worms to come up, feed on that material every night, and then go back down in the morning. And they will act as Mother Nature's rototillers in keeping your soil loose by creating channels for root growth for water to move through. And you're not going to get that benefit from hunks of bark.

Farmer Fred  22:45  

You know, it's amazing. You mentioned the worms that come up and they'll feed on that chipped and shredded mulch that's breaking down and helping to feed the soil. What is that breakdown of that mulch do to the mycorrhizal activity? How is that impacted? Is that a big help to increase their populations?

Steve Zien  23:04  

Most certainly, that's the carbon and that kind of material is the food source for all of your beneficial microscopic organisms. They are not like plants. They don't have leaves up in there that can use the sun to manufacture food. They've got to get almost all of their food from organic matter. And so that organic matter, when it's small enough where they can act on it, they will exude chemicals that will help break that down and they will feed on it. They will then make that material available through what's called the poop loop to your plant roots.

Farmer Fred  23:41  

Are you going to explain that or just leave that hanging there, so to speak?

Steve Zien  23:45  

 The poop loop. Most people think of it as the poop loop as nutrient cycling. As a soils pedologist, one who studies soils out in the real world, we call it the Poop loop. And basically this is what the poop loop is: You have this huge nuclear power plant up high in the sky. It's called the sun. And it's beaming down energy. And the plants  through the miracle of photosynthesis, take carbon dioxide out of the air, put it into their body so that  organic matter has all this carbon in the leaves and in the stems and in the roots. And then the plants breathe out oxygen so that all of the animals on the planet have oxygen to breathe. So then you're getting all that organic matter. Then that organic matter, in many cases, dies at some point. And then it's fed on by the decomposers. Primarily the bacteria and the fungi, bacteria and fungi are very efficient feeders. They take all of that nitrogen that was in that organic matter and they store in their bodies. And so they're storing it like bags of fertilizer, okay. Then these microscopic organisms, the bacteria and fungi, are eaten by small little microscopic soil predators, and they are not very efficient at using nitrogen. And so they've got to get rid of that excess nitrogen. And how do they do that? They poop. And that nitrogen in their poop is in a form, perfect for plant roots to absorb. And then those microscopic critters that are feeding on the bacteria and the fungi, they're eaten by bigger guys, who are eaten by bigger guys, who are eaten by bigger guys. And as you go up that chain, their efficiency of using nitrogen goes down. And so they end up having to get rid of that excess nitrogen. And so they poop. And that poop looping goes on. These predators are basically like fertilizer spreaders. And they are taking that stored up fertilizer in the bacteria and the fungi and they are spreading it around the soil in a form that the plant roots can absorb. That's why Mother Nature doesn't have to add fertilizer. That's the poop loop.

Farmer Fred  26:02  

Somebody may be wondering, well, then, is it okay to add my animal poop to my compost pile?

Steve Zien  26:08  

I would say no. I think it depends on the animal. I think it's the meat eating animals that you really want to avoid. And that's primarily due to the possibility of diseases that can go from the animal poop and into or on the produce that you will eat, and then you will be ingesting  those spores from those potential diseases, that can cause you health problems.

Farmer Fred  26:40  

Anything else you want to add to this?

Steve Zien  26:42  

Enjoy the poop loop.

Farmer Fred  26:43  

Steve, thanks so much.

Steve Zien  26:45  

It's been fun Fred, as always, thanks.

Farmer Fred  26:57  

You may have listened to our chat with Emily Murphy, author of the new garden book, Grow Now, when she talked about your NQ, your Nature Quotient, a measurement of how in tune with nature you just might be. The higher the NQ, the better the gardener you probably are. But we really didn’t dig down to find out the specifics, such as what sort of questions you should ask yourself about your own NQ, and ways you can improve your nature quotient.  So, that would make an excellent topic for the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred newsletter, “Beyond the Basics”. It’s the free garden email newsletter that comes out every Friday. Take the quiz, and find out easy ways to better connect with your natural surroundings.  It’s in the edition of the newsletter that comes out Friday, March 25.  Take a stroll through the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred newsletter, Beyond the Basics. Find a link in the podcast show notes; or, at Farmer Fred dot com; or, by going to substack dot com slash garden basics.  Think of it as your garden resource that goes beyond the basics. It’s the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred newsletter. And it’s free. Please subscribe and share it with your gardening friends and family. The Garden Basics with Farmer Fred newsletter, Beyond the Basics. And thank you for listening. 

Farmer Fred  28:19  

Garden Basics comes out every Tuesday and Friday. It's brought to you by Smart Pots. Garden Basics is available wherever podcasts are handed out. And that includes Apple, Iheart, Stitcher, Spotify, Overcast, Google, Podcast Addict, Cast Box, and Pocket Casts. Thank you for listening, subscribing and leaving comments. We appreciate it.

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