234 Fall Cleanup. Grow Berries. Winter Mulch

Besides making the autumn garden prettier, Debbie Flower mentions some early cleanup fall chores that can help reduce next year’s insect and disease problems in your garden.
Organic advocate Steve Zien talks about one of the easiest ways to improve your garden soil this winter: mulching with leaves.
Berry plants arrive at many  garden centers in mid to late fall. So, here's how to grow Raspberries and Boysenberries.
We’re podcasting from Barking Dog Studios here in the beautiful Abutilon Jungle in Suburban Purgatory. It’s the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred podcast, brought to you today by Smart Pots and Dave Wilson Nursery. Let’s go!

Previous episodes, show notes, links, product information, and transcripts at  GardenBasics.net. 

Links:
Beyond the Garden Basics Newsletter https://gardenbasics.substack.com
Smart Pots https://smartpots.com/fred/
Dave Wilson Nursery https://www.davewilson.com/home-garden/

UMass/Amherst Soil Testing
Colo St. Soil Testing
Hori Hori Knife
Berry Varieties to Consider
UCANR Growing Caneberries in the Sacramento Region
Raspberry, Blackberry Production Guide (Cornell U.)

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Chapters

• 1:43 Fall Cleanup Tips
• 15:59 Smart Pots!
• 17:56 Leaves as Winter Mulch
• 26:53 Dave Wilson Nursery
• 28:08 Growing Berries
• 55:55 Beyond The Garden Basics Newsletter

Transcript

GB 234 Fall Cleanup,  Leaf Mulching,  Growing Berries.  TRANSCRIPT

Farmer Fred  0:00 

Garden Basics with Farmer Fred is brought to you by Smart Pots, the original lightweight, long lasting fabric plant container. It's made in the USA. Visit SmartPots.com slash Fred for more information and a special discount, that's SmartPots.com/Fred.

Farmer Fred  0:20 

Welcome to the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred podcast. If you're just a beginning gardener or you want good gardening information, you've come to the right spot.

Farmer Fred  0:31  

Are you making a fall garden to-do list? Today, America’s Favorite Retired College Horticulture Professor, Debbie Flower, talks about one of the best tasks to do this time of year as you transition from the warm season to the cool season garden: cleanup. Besides making the garden prettier, we mention some early fall chores that can help reduce next year’s insect and disease problems in your garden.

Organic advocate Steve Zien talks about one of the easiest ways to improve your garden soil this winter: mulching with leaves. He explains the how’s and why’s of putting leaves on your garden bed.

And, with berry plants arriving and many warm climate garden centers in mid to late fall, we revisit our most popular chat with landscape advisor and Master Gardener Pam Bone from last spring, how to grow Raspberries and Blackberries.

We’re podcasting from Barking Dog Studios here in the beautiful Abutilon Jungle in Suburban Purgatory. It’s the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred podcast, brought to you today by Smart Pots and Dave Wilson Nursery. Let’s go!

Fall Garden Cleanup Tips

Farmer Fred  1:45  

We have a quick tip for you. Debbie Flower is here, America's favorite retired college horticultural professor, and summer is gone. It's now fall. but garden cleanup time is here. Perhaps your summer crops have finally done their thing. And it's time to either make room for a cool season garden, or just clean it up for a lot of very, very good reasons, Debbie.

Debbie Flower  2:07  

Oh, yeah. The two things I sort of focus my fall cleanup on is making it pretty. there's potentially dead things out there that I want to get rid of, things I know are gonna die that I'll either cut down now or I'll cut down later. And, controlling pest problems, controlling primarily, disease. So I like to do clean up fall cleanup with those two things in mind. 

Farmer Fred  2:29  

It's amazing that when you go out and pull out summer crops, what is left behind? I pulled out the popcorn last week. And sure enough, there was all sorts of spurge growing.

Debbie Flower  2:40  

Oh, yeah. Hidden.

Farmer Fred  2:42  

 Well, that gives me something else to do. And also, if you're in the habit of pulling out the roots of annual plants, you just might bring up some white grubs with you.  And you can feed those to the birds, right? Just toss them over your shoulder to chickens.

Debbie Flower  2:56  

If you've got them. Yep. Yeah. Leave them on the ground, the birds will get them. Yeah, that is one technique for the winter is sometimes to remove mulch in places where you've had a grub problem and let the birds find them.

Farmer Fred  3:07  

Yep. That works very well. If you had a problem plant and you're getting rid of it, and you're not sure what that problem is, it might be a disease,

Debbie Flower  3:17  

it might be a disease, it might be a disease like a root rot, brought on by poor drainage right there. Or it might be something that's passable to another plant in the garden.

Farmer Fred  3:28  

So I wouldn’t, in those situations not even compost that plant . put it in the GreenWaste.

Debbie Flower  3:34  

Right . especially if you don't know how to identify it, you can always take pieces to knowledgeable nursery professionals and ask them. Our mutual friend Don Shor, who owns a nursery in Davis, California, Redwood barn nursery, always says make that sample size a sheet of paper.  eight and a half by 11. Don't bring a single leaf and ask what's wrong with your plant. bring a section of the plant that is at least as big as the paper. It should contain stems and leaves and maybe flowers, if they were there, that gives more clues to the professional to help you diagnose the problem.

Farmer Fred  4:12  

 And the roots can tell you tales too. 

Debbie Flower  4:14  

They can tell you tales, you want to see how they've grown, the shape they've grown in. You want to smell the soil when you take it out of the ground. If it smells like low tide, you've got a root rot problems for sure. 

Farmer Fred  4:25  

By the way, for those of you born inland, the smell of low tide is a rather rancid smell.

Debbie Flower  4:31  

 kind of like a sewer, when you're fixing the sink and you forget to plug the pipe that's coming up out of the ground.

Farmer Fred  4:36  

Sounds like you've done that. 

Debbie Flower  4:39  

Yeah. Put a Plug in that!

Farmer Fred  4:40  

Is there value to replacing mulch?

Debbie Flower  4:43  

There is a lot of value, especially under a plant that has a disease. roses come to mind because they do get many diseases. and a lot of them are fungal diseases, and fungus creates spores. Spores can fall to the ground and then, with winter weather, rain in particular, even wind, they can get back, splash up, or blow back up onto the plant and they’ll sit there, waiting for the right conditions to germinate in spring. So you can, if you're ambitious, remove the layer of mulch that would be ideal a layer of mulch that is right under that plant and then bring in fresh mulch and put it down in its place. The mulch you removed would probably not be good to compost unless you know you have a very hot active compost that gets 140 degrees in all parts before you use it.

Farmer Fred  5:30  

At some point while I'm removing summer annuals, I'm hoping to find the pair of reading glasses that fell out of my pocket. Somewhere in the yard.

Debbie Flower  5:40  

You know what I keep losing? Hori-Hori, the Japanese gardening knife. Had three of them. Now I have two. now I have one. I don't know.  I wear an apron with pockets in the front when I garden. I think when I bend over, they must fall out. So number one is paint the handles of your tools a bright color.

Farmer Fred  5:59  

Or put  bright electrical tape on the handle of that tool.

Debbie Flower  6:02  

Yes. Something to give a color. I chose orange, orange like safety paint, to the hori-hori that I still have. But right, I'm hoping to find mine as well. Tools can get left behind in the garden.

Farmer Fred  6:13  

 And when you find them, what do you do?

Debbie Flower  6:17  

Well, you clean them up. you got to get them out of the garden and as you're pulling plants or, or weeding sections or removing and replacing mulch or just mulching because it's time again, you may find things that you didn't know you'd lost. And so, clean them, wash them with a scrub brush or a sponge, something rough, to get the sand off and then oil them.

Farmer Fred  6:40  

Okay, what about removing rust? 

Debbie Flower  6:43  

Well, rust, you can remove by washing and rubbing, scrubbing, and then oil will help it stop forming. But rust in itself is actually a protective layer,

Farmer Fred  6:51  

really. So you shouldn't scrape it off with a wire brush?

Debbie Flower  6:54  

Well, if you're going to maintain the tool from then on, so no more rust forms. Then Yes. That's where the oil comes in. Do scrape it off with a wire brush, but you have to then bring it in each time you use it, clean it off, put new oil on it and put it away.

Farmer Fred  7:11  

Well, that almost sounds like what you should do every time you use tools. 

Debbie Flower  7:15  

Exactly. That's how you would maintain it once you've gotten the rust off of it. Yes, that's what I was referring to.

Farmer Fred  7:19  

 Yeah, just scraping the dirt off, the loose dirt off your tools at the end of the day. Don't put away dirty tools.

Debbie Flower  7:25  

No don't put away dirty tools, especially at my house!

Farmer Fred  7:28  

Okay. hey, now for those who may or may not have had an experience with a Hori Hori knife. It is really a multi use tool.

Debbie Flower  7:37  

It is. which is why I carry it around with me. 

Farmer Fred  7:41  

Yes, yeah, it's heavy duty. it's a heavy shank of metal that when you look at it, at first glance, it looks like a knife. But it's also a trowel. It's also a saw, right?

Debbie Flower  7:49  

It's got nice big teeth on one side, it's got a wide enough blade, you can dig a hole, it's got a sort of a fork and tongue at the tip, which sometimes helps getting weeds out of the ground. It's a very useful tool.

Farmer Fred  8:00  

You'd think they'd be hard to lose, being about a foot long or so. But they disappear. Yeah, not that I hold it against my wife. But I still miss that Hori Hori knife that went missing 20 years ago. 

Debbie Flower  8:14  

yeah. 

Farmer Fred  8:17  

It's one of those tools that you built up a relationship with.

Debbie Flower  8:20  

Here's another thing I like to do in fall . It maybe more of a California thing than in other climates because I tend to only plant in certain seasons. And that's from when we first get rains through maybe Thanksgiving, because the soil remains fairly warm. And we're hopefully getting some natural rain and the days are shorter, temperatures are milder. And so the plants establish pretty well. During that time. As I'm doing the cleanup, which I'm doing earlier in the season, I get some of those flat, they're about one and a half inch wide, wooden stakes, maybe a foot long. And the thin ones, the cheap ones. I don't like the plastic because  I know there's a whole suite of animals that visit my yard at night, raccoons and skunks. and the plastic stakes tend to get bent over or broken. The wood ones are tall enough and thick enough, that doesn't seem to happen. And I take a marker, a permanent marker, and write on it the things I would like to do in that area of the landscape. If I want to move a plant and it's not it's too early, I'll say “move this plant to…” and name the location. If I want to get a new one. I've thought it through, I've done my research, I've picked up my plant, let's say Plant A and X plant over here. It has helped me organize my thoughts because I could pick all kinds of plants for one location and I if I've done the research I need to make sure I sort of put that in writing for myself.

Farmer Fred  9:44  

I kind of do the same thing, but I use green tree tape. And I will try it, especially on permanent crops like fruit trees or fruit producing shrubs. If there's a non productive section to that plant in its typical time of production I put tape around the nonperforming branch to remind me at the end of the season when there isn't much evidence of anything that this is dead.

Debbie Flower  10:11  

Yes, it's sort of tangential. But when I'm thinking of pruning a plant to shape it, but it's not the right season, especially if it's already planted, I'm going to prune during dormancy, I go out with a roll of masking tape. And we'll put pieces of tape around the branch I think I want to remove and then I'll walk around the plant because plant looks different from the other side, and check out my choice and walk around the other side, etc. And then when it comes time to prune, I have made my decisions.

Farmer Fred  10:41  

I was walking around the Fair Oaks Horticulture Center during their September workshop, and they have on a trellis, a Stella cherry tree, except the tree has been espaliered. And if you live in California, there's this old garden rule that you want to prune your apricot and cherries in August, because it can allow those wounds to heal in time before the winter rains happen, which  rains could spread diseases like Eutypa.

Debbie Flower  11:11  

Right. 

Farmer Fred  11:12  

Well, okay, that's a that's a good piece of advice. All right, so prune your apricots and cherries early, maybe in August. But what happens then, when you've pruned your, let's say, Stella cherry tree on the espalier, a two or three days before in late August, and then all of a sudden 100 degree temperatures hit for the next 10 days. And it gets up to say, 116 degrees.

Debbie Flower  11:35  

That was an unusual heatwave. And for which I think most of us really didn't know what to do. shadecloth is what pops to mind for me. 

Farmer Fred  11:45  

Well, what happened though, it was on a north-south facing espalier,  the south side facing the sun. while they prune both sides, but that south facing side, all of a sudden that hot sun was hitting newly exposed leaves, and they all got burned to a crisp, it was brown on one side. go over to the north side, it was a Beautiful green.

Debbie Flower  12:08  

And so that may influence how well it grows in the future. I have seen other plants burned like that, some in my own landscape. And then we had a whole bunch of rain. And I thought maybe that would knock off these burned, plant parts, particularly leaves. And that didn't happen. So that  means there's still a cellular attachment between the petiole of the leaf and the stem. So now we need to watch and see if the coming shorter days and cooler temperatures allow that plant to produce the cells that allow that leaf to fall off. If not, then the wood has been damaged also,

Farmer Fred  12:45  

yeah, there are a lot of rules we follow because it's calendar based, right? And  we're very organizational, we like to plan things out. And of course you do things every month of the year. That's why there's things like garden calendars, but I'm wondering now the value of garden calendars with the sudden changes in the weather. 

Debbie Flower  13:04  

Well, the calendars need to adapt, but we don't know how to adapt until we live through it, I think. 

Farmer Fred  13:10  

But at least with most weather and the accuracy of weather forecasts, we can get a glimpse of what's going to happen 10 days out, 12 days. yes, it might influence what we were about to do. And so we have to think in that regard as well.

Debbie Flower  13:24  

Right. Another thing about pruning, especially a cherry, and an apricot, probably, too, is that they have thinner wood, they have thinner bark, it's not the wood itself. It's the bark, it's the outside layer, the protective layers are pretty thin on those trees, particularly the cherry. And if you prune them in a sunny, dry time of the year, when it's still summer, you need to go in and whitewash the newly exposed wood. I have an apricot and haven't finished pruning it and it's September, and I should have done that, but I keep debating about removing a fairly large branch that runs horizontal over the top of about a third of the plant. And my debate has to do with sun. When I removed that branch, what am I going to expose and how is it going to react? I'm going to do it in a season later than  is recommended here in California because I'm more concerned about sun burning the exposed wood, more than anything.

Farmer Fred  14:21  

the outlook for rain this year is not that good. 

Debbie Flower  14:26  

 long, dry periods, right? 

Farmer Fred  14:28  

unfortunately, there's that too. We've taken some interesting scenic bypasses. We were talking about end of summer or beginning of fall cleanup time. But again, we will persevere, despite the unusual weather.

Debbie Flower  14:39  

One other thing to do in Fall cleanup: If a plant is dying, take it out while it's still alive. Or if a branch is dying. Cut it off while it's still alive. The reason for that is it's much much easier to cut wood or roots that are alive and contain water than wood or roots that are dead. t

Farmer Fred  15:04  

I would think that if they were totally dried out, wouldn’t they just snap off?

Debbie Flower  15:06  

No they don't. It's a lot harder to prune with a tool and I tried to sharpen mine before I use them each time. I'm trying to force that habit into myself. It's much harder to cut dry deadwood than it is living, lubricated wood. That's what it is, the water acts as a lubricant.

Farmer Fred  15:23  

Have you heard about anvil loppers?

Debbie Flower  15:25  

Yeah, I have a set. 

Farmer Fred  15:27  

All right. And that's the only purpose there is for anvil loppers.

Debbie Flower  15:32  

It will still cut the wood but it's easier if it's alive. 

Farmer Fred  15:36  

And you can always just wrap a chain around the dying plant, tie it to the back of your pickup truck and hit the gas.

Debbie Flower  15:42  

Okay, I'll remember that. 

Farmer Fred  15:43  

Yeah, don't do that.  I did that with an Oleander once and I almost lost the bumper.

Debbie Flower  15:50  

The way bumpers are made these days. I believe that Yeah. 

Farmer Fred  15:53  

All right. It’s end of  summer garden cleanup time, continuing through the beginning of fall. Let's get to it. Thank you, Debbie.

Debbie Flower  15:58  

You're welcome, Fred.

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Farmer Fred  16:03  

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Using Leaves as a Winter Mulch 

Farmer Fred  17:57  

We're going from summer gardening to cool season gardening, and maybe you don't want to put in cool season crops. Maybe you don't want to deal with plants that might be killed by a frost or a freeze. But don't leave your summer garden intact. In its place, there are some cheap and easy things you can do that will not only minimize pest problems for the following years, but also during the winter, feed your soil and make it even better for next year. We're talking with Steve Zien. He is Sacramento's organic advocate, an organic gardener. For decades he ran his own organic gardening and consulting company. And Steve, I know we've talked about cover crops before. but going beyond cover crops. If people want an easy way to feed their soil during the winter, they don't want to grow cool season crops. I think one of the easiest things to do, well, two things to do, is  cut down everything to soil level. If you're growing tomatoes and peppers, just cut them off at the soil level but leave the roots in the soil. And  then cover that soil with leaves that are falling from the trees in the fall. grind them up with your mower or a weed whacker or something. and just put down six, eight or 12  inches of leaves on top of that garden bed. And now it's your turn to tell us about the benefits of doing that. 

Steve Zien  19:23  

Yeah, it's absolutely wonderful. It regulates the soil temperature, the soil temperature will be warmer. The fact that it's all ground up makes it easier for the biology that's in the soil to come up into that mulch and munch it down and then the rains will help leach those small little particles down. The worms that are in your soil will come up and feed on that every single day. And if it's a thick mulch, even at night because it'll be dark, they will be aerating your soil and taking that organic matter of material down into the soil, and the nutrients that leach through by the rains will also leach the biology because that'll start composting on the top of the soil. And the biology that's composting will increase in numbers and will end up moving down into the soil as well. So you will get nutrients move down into the soil and and increase the nutrient value. And you will get more soil biology. And the more soil biology you have, the more diversity in the more numbers, the healthier your soil is, and the healthier your crops will be. I just took a class recently. everybody's been talking about rotating your crops  for decades to reduce pest problems. And they're now saying that if you have the right biology and you put down cover crops or you put down a thick mulch, you really will have the biology in there, the beneficial soil biology, to naturally combat the pest problems. And you should not have to rotate your crops.

Farmer Fred  21:09  

I love it when you're a contrarian. It makes perfect sense to me.

Steve Zien  21:14  

Yeah, if you've got the good soil biology down there, and then you're feeding it with either a cover crop or with a thick mulch, you're feeding the good biology. the good biology will fight it out basically with the bad biology and not allowing them to grow in substantial numbers where it might harm your plants the following season.

Farmer Fred  21:38  

Now I mentioned earlier about the benefits of clipping off the tops of the plants and leaving the roots in place. true or false?

Steve Zien  21:45  

true. Because they will decompose and typically will decompose pretty fast. Again, if you have an organic, happy, healthy soil. If you've been using pesticides, if you've been using synthetic fertilizers, the biology isn't going to be there to break that stuff down. But  if you're growing organically a lot, you'll have a lot of biology in your soil, that stuff , most of those roots, will break down very very quickly. And they will create air channels there, they will end up aerating your soil because that’s where the root was, there's nothing there anymore. And so you've got these big pore spaces. So when you irrigate next spring, the water is gonna move through the soil, the worms can move through the soil better, the soil biology, all of the various microbes and beneficial mites and protozoa and all those guys can move through the soil and do their job better.

Farmer Fred  22:41  

And you're also improving water percolation for the years ahead by keeping those roots in the soil.

Steve Zien  22:48  

exactly. because  they'll decompose.  the soil biology will basically reduce them to nothing. And they will be large, large pore spaces where those roots were and so when you irrigate, the water will go down very, very nicely, which is important if you've got a clay soil and at least here in the Sacramento region, most gardeners have a clay soil.

Farmer Fred  23:11  

I think across the country, there are a lot of gardeners who are dealing with clay soil. Yes. You mentioned a very unusual word here. I'm not sure what it is. You're talking about to help that mulch layer on top break down. That “rain” could do that. What is this thing called “rain” that you're talking about?

Steve Zien  23:31  

I don't know. It's it's been a long time. And you know,  last year we got what, seven inches?

Farmer Fred  23:37  

something like that. Now that brings up a question if it doesn't rain. I hope it rains. But if it doesn't rain this fall and winter here in California and in many areas of the West, if you don't get the fall and winter rain, should you irrigate the top of that mulch, once a week ?just turn on a hose and start sprinkling it?

Steve Zien  23:58  

 I think it would be a good idea once in a while. Certainly once a week is not necessary. Typically once. If you do it once in the wintertime is ok. it's not very hot. In many cases, it will hopefully be cloudy before you irrigate. I would probably irrigate it.  Make sure that mulch is moist, not wet, but moist, when you put it down or after you put it down. And then before you add more moisture, don't just look at the surface, dig down an inch or two and see if it's dry. And if it's dry, then you might want to add more water.

Farmer Fred  24:38  

 it's a good point. And to reinforce something we said earlier: the smaller the pieces of those leaves that you're using as mulch, the quicker it can break down and feed the soil. And plus, if you're just stacking 12 inches of unchopped leaves on top of your garden bed, might you create an anaerobic environment?

Steve Zien  24:58  

It can. it Helps to grind it up some way. And you know, a lawn mower works well in. And you mentioned that another easy way to do it ,if you've got a string trimmer, is get  a five gallon or get a garbage can and put a small amount of  the mulch in the garbage can, and then run your weed eater down in there and it'll chop it up pretty nicely as well. It's an alternative way to do it. 

Farmer Fred  25:23  

And to save wear and tear on that garbage can, make sure it's a metal garbage can, which are still available. They're out there. Yeah, usually a 27 or 32 gallon metal garbage can. and then put those whole leaves, like you said, maybe fill up that can 1/3 and then put your string trimmer in it, turn it on, whizz it around a while, and you'd be surprised at how the leaf level drops. And then you can pile more in there and then chop it up again and just do it in increments like that.

Steve Zien  25:52  

Yeah. And make sure you have a string trimmer. I know some string trimmers can be outfitted with metal blades. No, don't use those. That's gonna pretty much destroy your container.

Farmer Fred  26:06  

 Yeah. And wear eye protection anytime you do that.  And for that string trimmer, don’t even use the plastic blades. Just that string trimmer is best.  If you're not going to be planting cool season crops this year, then the least you can do for your soil is cover it with mulch, chopped up leaves is great. Just leave it on until spring and you don't even have to remove it in spring. You can just move that aside and plant whatever you're going to put in, come springtime and keep that as a permanent mulching area. Just make room for your plants. 

Steve Zien

Exactly. 

Farmer Fred

Mr. Exactly is with us. Steve Zien is Sacramento’s organic advocate, with  Living Resources Company, Steve, Thanks for the good cool season advice.

Steve Zien  26:51  

A pleasure as always, frog.

Dave Wilson Nursery

Farmer Fred  27:02  

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Growing Raspberries and Boysenberries

Farmer Fred   

We are at Pam Bone's house here in Sacramento County. Pam Bone, famous Sacramento County Master Gardener, the original Sacramento County Master Gardener, by the way. And we are at her home where they have developed a yard for over 40 years and Pam loves berries. Pam, it's almost like Knott's Berry Farm here. You've got boysenberries here.

Pam Bone 

Yes, I come from Washington State, my husband comes from Oregon State and you have to grow berries, raspberries, boysenberries, whatever. Boysenberries are just ideal for making pies and I make a lot of pies. They make a wonderful jam. And of course, they're delicious for fresh eating as well. And they love our Sacramento climate.

Farmer Fred  

Ah, so does that mean that in a state like Washington, they wouldn't do well?

Pam Bone   

No, they do great there too. They love it there, they do just as fine. You just have to decide, do you have the sun for them, they just like full sun. And they do really well, in that they are very adaptable actually.

Farmer Fred  

Describe the trellis that you've designed for them. 

Pam Bone    

Years ago, we had a massive system with the big wooden cross bars on it, and the ones that you see commercially. It's a pretty daunting thing, too. And it takes a lot of time and energy to install, and it's expensive. And one day, we had a massive tree fall and literally destroy our entire berry patch here, including the cross bars. And so we decided, you know what, we're gonna do this a little easier. And we're going to use these T-bars, these metal T-bars with wires. And it works just beautifully. It holds them nicely, we've got a T-bar spaced out so that you've got not too much tension on the wire or, you know, too much stress on the wires here. And then we've got the three wire system so that the berries can be trained in three different locations and tied on with little twisty ties. And then we use kind of a barrel method, sort of where you, you come up from the base of the plant, and then you go on to one of the wires and train the branches, sometimes as a barrel loop if you've got a long enough cane, and they loop around, gives a little more maximum sun exposure for the plant. But yeah, these T-bars just work really, really well. They stay in the soil nicely. And then you can see there, they turn in just a little on the edges just because some of the tensions late in the season. But you can twist the wire a little bit tighter and and it works great. And it's inexpensive, easy to do and not so daunting.

Farmer Fred   

For those of you technically minded, the T-bars are spaced about eight to 10 feet apart. And there's a three wire system on here that looks like it begins about 18 inches above the ground. And the next two wires are also spaced by another 18 inches. And so the total height of this is maybe four and a half to five feet.

Pam Bone  

Yes, and then some of the berries later in the season, then they'll stick up a little bit further and there are a lot over just a bit. But otherwise this contains them pretty nicely actually, you can see that we do have some canes that are growing past the wires. But for the most part, it works well for us. If you've got a really really vigorous canes growing, then you might want to make a little bit taller.

Farmer Fred    

And a little bit more support on the ends as well.

Pam Bone    

Exactly, That's true, too. If they get really heavy and laden down, then the wires then sag. And we get a little bit of that, but gosh, it's a really inexpensive easy way to do it and if for some reason you had to move it or adjust things or whatever, it's easy to do this whole thing with the big wooden cross bars and people putting them in concrete and whatever else they do it's it's like digging for a fence. A permanent structure may not be what you need to have.

Farmer Fred    

How do you care for boysenberries? What are the watering requirements, the fertilization and the pruning requirements?

Pam Bone    

Well, as far as watering goes, they need regular irrigation, at least once a week irrigation. We have a drip irrigation system, using the inline emitters in rows down the berries themselves. We have three lines on each of the rows. So we encompass most of the root system. And then we want to make sure that we run that drip irrigation as long as water is flowing down into the root system, we want it to go down in as far as we can, which is going to be at least 18 inches. 12 to 18 inches is where most of those roots are contained. So you want to make sure that you run the irrigation long enough. I will say that I find that most people do not run their drip irrigation long enough, and they just dribble out a little bit of water. Then  you get a very shallow root system and what happens if you have a dry spell? You forget to water, something happens or whatever, then the plants are really suffering. So watering is really critical. The other thing that we do is we put on a lot of wood chips. We get a lot of arborist wood chips that are delivered to us and put that on and then we always top dress with compost. We have a lot of compost piles. We have a lot of oak trees and other trees that produce leaves and plus of course I save all my kitchen scraps  and that compost, then, makes a wonderful top dressing. It doesn't completely eliminate fertilization. But it helps to give you a little bit of nutrition as well as keeping the soil moist and cool and helping to mitigate soil fluctuations in temperatures and then it's going to help with your watering as well. So fertilizing then, about once a year, already did it just a few weeks ago, just as the growth is starting up in usually early March, then we go in with an all purpose fertilizer or in our case, this year, and in years past, we often just get a an all purpose lawn fertilizer, high in nitrogen, which these berries need, but it still gives you a little bit of phosphorus and potassium. But nitrogen is necessary. People don't realize that you got to have the growth in order to produce flowers and fruits and the fact that we're putting on a lot of mulch and a lot of compost on top and that the soil in our area isn't real deficient and phosphorus and potassium, you don't need very much of it, you're going to get it from your mulch, and your compost, a little bit anyhow. So the nitrogen is the one thing that is transitory. You put it on and it flows right out when you water. You got to be careful not to overwater, you'll lose your nitrogen. So nitrogen is real important that it be put on annually for all fruits, whether they're bushes, or vines or fruit trees.

Farmer Fred    

It's always a good idea to have your soil tested before you do any planting, so you know exactly what your soil needs. There are a couple of inexpensive University related soil testing sites that will be glad to take your $20 and send you back a soil test report. One is the University of Massachusetts Amherst, and the other is Colorado State University. If you do an internet search for either of those universities and put in the words "soil test", you'll get the details on how to go about that. And they're fairly complete soil tests, too. So that is a inexpensive option. Of course, you can always soil test for macronutrients and pH yourself. You can find those kits at any garden center or nursery. But yeah, know your soil before you plant anything. Are the boysenberries like raspberries, in that once a branch produces, it's done?

Pam Bone  

Yes. And in fact, in this case, because our raspberries I was saying earlier, are fall bearers or everbearers people call them that because they produce two crops. This produces one crop, we get a crop in June, and then that's it. And then those berries, as soon as they start to really dry back and look kind of crispy, you just remove them, then the new canes are all coming up from the base of the plant. And we let them just sprawl on the ground while the others are dying back, then we take them out and at some point, put the new ones up onto the trellis.

Farmer Fred 

Alright, boysenberries, and what do you do with them? When do you harvest them?

Pam Bone   

Harvesting is in June in our area. Basically, they're pretty much finished by the Fourth of July, we can usually count on the last crop just about them. And they will start producing about the first week of June. And you can just you just come out and pick them. you pick them with your fingers. You don't have to use any kind of pruning equipment or anything like that. You just pluck them off and they store very nicely in a colander in the refrigerator and I make a lot of pies and jam with them and we eat them fresh and just love them. They're great. boysenberries are one of the most versatile berries and do well in a variety of climates. They actually will tolerate the sun even better than raspberries in full sun, they don't do well in the shade. They'll produce a lot of vine, but who wants that? And then you do have to do one thing with boysenberries. Like any Blackberry, because they're a type of Blackberry,  they will send up errant blackberries and you can get the Blackberry mess if you're not careful when the patch gets overgrown. So just go out there and make sure you tidy up the rows occasionally and dig out those ones. Otherwise, we don't find them becoming the jungle at all, unless you're just not keeping up with it. 

Farmer Fred   

Are there boysenberry varieties?

Pam Bone    

Boysenberry is a variety of blackberry. So there are nectar berries, which some people say boysenberries and nectarberries are the same. There are loganberries, there are a lot of berries. These are all types of berries that were developed from a Blackberry and then there are lots of just blackberries that are not crosses but have been also genetically grown to produce different varieties of blackberries so you can just get an ordinary Blackberry. These are a larger berry a little bit softer berry I like them because I think they're better for pies. We did grow regular blackberries, as well, but found they weren't to my satisfaction for baking with them and making jam, so we took them out and put in more boysenberries.

Farmer Fred   

How daunting are the thorns on these?

Pam Bone    

You know, back in the day when we first put these in, the thornless berries didn't produce very well, they were not very good varieties. Now I understand from a lot of growers and from the Master Gardeners that grow these at our Fair Oaks Horticulture Center that a lot of the thornless varieties are excellent now and do produce well. So we put in 40 varieties and they're not that bad. I will say when we're tying them up, often times, you have to put tape or something on your fingers to prevent yourself from just getting little prickles into your fingers. But they're not that bad. And they just produce so well.

Farmer Fred    

It is a little hard to be tying branches up to wires when you're wearing thick goatskin gloves.

Pam Bone   

You can't do that. That's the problem. Actually what works pretty well now  is just the little thin latex gloves you use for just cleaning up around the house and that they actually work pretty well for being able to tie with those. And then you can replace them and they're cheap. 

Farmer Fred   

There you go. That's a good quick tip. We are in the boysenberry patch at Pam Bone's house. It's It looks to be berry delicious, he said punnily. Thank you, Pam.

Pam Bone  

Thank you very much Fred. I enjoy sharing my crop with you.

Beyond the Garden Basics Newsletter

Farmer Fred  55:57  

Can organic pesticides be hazardous to your health? How safe are homemade pesticides? How safe are some of your other garden inputs, including mulches, manures…and water? In the October 7th Beyond the Garden Basics newsletter, we chat with America’s Favorite Retired College Horticulture Professor, Debbie Flower, about these topics in the podcast section of the newsletter. And we do a deep dive in the newsletter itself about less toxic pesticides that you should consider using, after you’ve exhausted all the physical, mechanical and cultural controls for garden problems.

Find a subscription link to the Beyond the Garden Basics newsletter in today’s show notes, or visit our website, Garden Basics dot net, where you can sign up to have the free, Beyond the Garden Basics newsletter and podcast delivered to your inbox each Friday. Also at Garden Basics dot net, you can listen to any of our previous editions of the Garden Basics podcast, as well as read a transcript of the podcast episode you are listening to now. 

For current newsletter subscribers, look for the “How Safe are Organic Garden Chemicals?” in the Beyond the Garden Basics newsletter, now available, in your email. Take a deeper dive into gardening, with the Beyond the Garden Basics newsletter. And it’s free. Find the link in today’s show notes or at garden basics dot net.

Farmer Fred  57:26  

The Garden Basics with Farmer Fred podcast comes out once a week on Fridays plus the newsletter podcast that comes with the beyond the garden basics newsletter continues and that will also be released on Fridays. Both are free and they're brought to you by smart pots and Dave Wilson nursery. The garden basics podcast is available wherever podcasts are handed out and that includes our homepage, garden basics.net And that's where you can also sign up for the beyond the garden basics newsletter and podcast that's garden basics.net Or you can use the links in today's show notes. And thank you so much for listening