337 How To Choose Nursery Plants. Tips for Starting a School Garden.

If you’re the type of gardener that buys flowering plants at a nursery that are covered in blooms, America’s Favorite Retired College Horticulture Professor, Debbie Flower, will explain why you shouldn’t do that, and a lot more nursery plant shopping tips!
Also, we have tips for starting an elementary school garden. And you don’t have to be a school teacher to do it. We talk with a couple of very enthusiastic California Master Gardeners who are spreading the word with tips on how to start a school garden.

We’re podcasting from Barking Dog Studios here in the beautiful Abutilon Jungle in Suburban Purgatory,  it’s the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred podcast, brought to you today by Smart Pots and Dave Wilson Nursery. Let’s go!

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Pictured: Plants at a Nursery

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HeirloomRoses.com (with the FRED discount link)
William Brooks Elementary School Garden Info / Donate
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Chapters

• 1:53 How to Choose Nursery Plants
• 23:24 Smart Pots!
• 25:16 Dave Wilson Nursery
• 26:31 Tips for Starting a School Garden
• 50:41 Garden Basics Podcast and Newsletter - Help Spread the Word!

Transcript

337 TRANSCRIPT Choosing Nursery Plants. Starting a School Garden

Farmer Fred  0:00  

Garden Basics with Farmer Fred is brought to you by Smart Pots, the original lightweight, long lasting fabric plant container. It's made in the USA. Visit SmartPots.com slash Fred for more information and a special discount, that's SmartPots.com/Fred.

Welcome to the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred podcast. If you're just a beginning gardener or you want good gardening information, you've come to the right spot.

Farmer Fred

If you’re the type of gardener that buys flowering plants at a nursery that are covered in blooms, America’s Favorite retired College horticulture Professor, Debbie Flower, will explain why you shouldn’t do that. Or, perhaps your a nursery shopper that tends to procrastinate after buying plants, and those flowers and vegetables are sitting on your patio in their original containers until the following weekend, or longer, you’re asking for trouble. But there are some simple solutions to keep those plants healthy until you get around to planting them. How to Choose Nursery Plants is Topic A on today’s Garden Basics podcast.

Also, we have tips for starting an elementary school garden. And you don’t have to be a school teacher to do it. We talk with a couple of very enthusiastic California Master Gardeners who are spreading the word about how to start a school garden.

It’s all in Episode 337 of today’s Garden Basics with Farmer Fred podcast: choosing nursery plants, and tips for starting a school garden.

We’re podcasting from Barking Dog Studios here in the beautiful Abutilon Jungle in Suburban Purgatory,  it’s the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred podcast, brought to you today by Smart Pots and Dave Wilson Nursery. Let’s go!

HOW TO CHOOSE PLANTS AT A NURSERY

Farmer Fred

Well, it's that time of year when a lot of people like to head out to the nursery and get some plants, and I don't blame you. Especially those plants that are putting on a show. And a lot of plants are putting on a show in spring. And it's not a bad idea to buy a plant that has some color on it. Or at least gaze at those plants that have some color on it to know that this is the color you actually want. However, do you really want to buy a plant that's in flower? That's just one of the questions you need to answer before you buy a nursery plant. Debbie Flower is here, America's favorite retired college horticultural professor. And we all love to shop at nurseries. It's fun. I'm not sure how fun nurseries are who see us there though, because we're going to be picking up pots and moving pots and looking at the bottom of pots. And maybe if nobody's looking, pop that plant out, to take a look to see what the roots look like or what critters might be in there. So how do you go about choosing a nursery plant?

Debbie Flower  2:56  

Good question. Go into the nursery is always dangerous. I always come home with more than I intended to get. But so the first thing I want to do is read the signs and labels, to find out about this plant. Is it going to do what I want it to do ? Is it going to fit in the place I want it to fit? Is it going to take the conditions I have in mind? Plants don't always do that. I sometimes buy plants that I just love. But really that's what I should be doing, is making sure I have a place for this plant in my garden.

Farmer Fred  3:22  

So you don't do impulse buying?

Debbie Flower  3:28  

 I do do. Right. Yes, we all do. I try. I'm trying to limit them. You know that collection of plants outside my kitchen door? The ones that are all gonna go into the ground someday? Well, I've lived in my house 12 years, and that collection has never gotten smaller. So yeah, I have impulse buys too. But when I buy a plant, I want it to be healthy. I want it to be good color for what it's supposed to be, to not have extra holes in the leaves, or spots on the leaves. Not be sticky to the touch. So I want to touch it. Horticulture is a contact sport. I don't want it to be mushy. That would mean it might be rotting. And I'm going to check it for pests. I’ll look on the top and on the back of the leaves. The back of the leaves is where pests often hang out and hide. And I might not see them, but I might see their poop or their cast skins. Aphids, as they grow, are kind of like a snake. They take off one skin and emerge from it underneath. And they leave their old skins behind. So I'm looking to make sure the plant is healthy. Do I want it in flower? No, I really don't. I want it to be in bud. But if it's in flower now, if I buy the one that has the most open flowers, what's going to happen next week? I'm going to have a plant that will be shocked. Yes, it'll be shocked. It'll drop those flowers and it doesn't have the energy to make any more right now. Because establishing it in the garden or in a bigger pot takes some time and effort on the plant’s part. So if I'm buying something for  the flowers, I want it to be in bud, but preferably not in flower. If I'm suspicious, or it's a mix, sometimes you'll buy mixed colors of zinnias. I know in seed packets, it's that way. So if you know you want a certain color, then yes, have one in bloom, so you know what color you're getting. But not  all the flowers, just mostly in bud.

Farmer Fred  5:23  

I'm going to make sure, that on your tombstone, it reads, “horticulture is a contact sport.” 

Debbie Flower  5:31  

Okay, I’ll go with that.

Farmer Fred  5:34  

But yeah, feeling that leaf because  if there's honeydew, or sticky stuff on there, right? That's great. And besides, you might crush a few aphids at the time.

Debbie Flower  5:42  

They will come off onto your hands. And you want to look at the media that it's growing in, you want to check if there are any weeds growing, they're not a good sign. Often I've worked in a nursery, and part of the job is to remove those weeds. Sometimes they used to be there, and now they're not. But if they're there, you certainly don't want to purchase the plant, you want to check the height of the media, it shouldn't be all the way to the top of the pot, because that means when they go to water it, the water will just run off and the plant is probably starving for water. Although you'll see wilting in the plant, if that's the case, and you don't want that plant. And you don't want it super low. If it's super low, and this would apply more to perennials, maybe an azalea shrub in spring, it's been in that container for too long, which means it's probably rootbound because the container media decomposes over time and it sinks. So if it's more than an inch and a half down in the pot, I would start to worry about it.

Farmer Fred  6:39  

And chances are if you pop that one out of the plant, you would see roots going round and round and round.

Debbie Flower  6:44  

Right, that's the next way to look at the media, is to pop it right out of the pot, you may see roots of weeds, some of the oxalises have colored roots that is different than the color of the roots of the plant, you might see those, they tend to run down the side of the container media, you might see the roots going round and round and round inside the pot, you do want to see roots coming to the edge of the media right up under the pot so that you know it's well rooted in. You're getting what you're paying for. But you don't want to see a whole lot of them coming out the drain holes, because that again means it's in a pot that's too small for it.

Farmer Fred  7:22  

Oh boy, does that ever tick me off when you might go to say, a plant sale at a college or something. And you're paying for a one gallon potted plant, and you get it home and you take it out to put it in the ground and all that comes out is like three, four inches worth of roots. So they had probably stuck that in a one gallon pot the day before the sale. Right.

Debbie Flower  7:45  

And you paid for the one gallon? Yeah. And you're done. All you got for it was loose media. Yeah, you got a four inch plant. Yes, that's actually technically illegal. The law says you have to have the roots up to the edge. 

Farmer Fred  7:59  

Really? I don't think everybody knows that. I don't think it gets enforced very often. 

Debbie Flower  8:04  

Right now. But yes, there are plant police. But they're usually hired by companies that have patented plants, and they're coming around to see if you're illegally propagating patented plants. But anyway, back to the spying. If it's a woody plant, then pull up on the stem while it's in the pot pull up on the stem. If the plant comes, and the media doesn't come with it, it's probably got a circling root underneath it. And you don't want that plant either. Over time that plant will die, it'll choke itself to death.

Farmer Fred  8:36  

So you want a plant that is so well established in that container that the roots are touching the inside of the container walls, but not so prolific that they're wrapping around each other. But even that can be solved.

Debbie Flower  8:50  

Yes, that can be solved. And it's easier to solve in some plants than in others monocots such as grasses, palms, spider plants, corn,  they can make a whole new root system as needed, takes energy, but they can do it. So they're really easy plants. In fact, if you're a new gardener, starting with ornamental grasses and corn and things like that may be a good choice because root damage is not really a problem with these plants. If you're working with tomato seedlings, small tomato plants, in this case it's an herbaceous plants, not a monocot. And herbaceous plants mean they never form wood. they tend to recover from some root damage during the transplant, you're going to do root damage during the transplant. You can't avoid it. And actually it's kind of a good thing. You want to cut the roots. I like to cut down the four sides and an X across the bottom, not in very deeply, maybe a quarter of an inch. 

Farmer Fred  9:58  

Would you, in that process of removing it to be planted into the ground, would you have watered that container plant thoroughly first?

Debbie Flower  10:06  

I like to have it watered. Yes, there are people who say don't. But I like to have it watered. And I like what I'm planting into to also be watered. So I'd like them to be both moist. 

Farmer Fred  10:18  

Okay, that makes sense. I am concerned though about some noxious weeds that developed from corns or tubers that might be in that soil. And it's pretty easy to knock the top off of a weed, but sometimes you're leaving behind little babies. And that's always a nasty surprise after a month or two after you got it in the ground. And all of a sudden, wait a minute, we just imported a bad guy. What am I gonna do about that? But what can you do? I mean,  I know Linda Chalker-Scott, who we've had on this program, talks  a lot about washing the roots when you buy a plant and take it home, wash all the soil off.

Debbie Flower  10:59  

Right, and I don't do that. She's in Washington, she's in a place that has a milder climate and more water. Although it is somewhat of a Mediterranean climate still, to be on the West Coast of the US. And I am concerned about damaging the roots I have. Also, if I were to do it, I would only want to do it when the plant was dormant.

Farmer Fred  11:22  

Yeah. The other thing that some people do is to plant that plant, pot and all, in the pot that they bought it in. Oops. We can get confused about these containers. Speaking of things like maybe fruit trees, or vining plants that might be sold in a pulp pot.

Debbie Flower  11:44  

Yes, a pulp pot, or even a ball and burlap. 

Farmer Fred  11:49  

Yeah. And they say they will break down, but I think it takes way too long. 

Debbie Flower  11:54  

I agree. And it's creates a change in texture of the soil, or of the media, it's not really soil. The Pulp Pot itself ,being a different texture than the media, the plant is growing and above it, and it's a different texture from the field soil around it. So when water meets a different texture, if possible, it doesn't go through it, meaning if there's another route, if it can stay in the container media that the plant is in and just saturated completely, it will do that until it gets completely full and then push, the next drop of water will push into the pulp pot but  the plant is suffering while that media is saturated. If it's field soil that is getting wet from irrigation or rain or something, it will not enter the Pulp Pot until and get all the way into the media the roots are in, until everything around it has become saturated. And hopefully that doesn't happen in your yard.

Farmer Fred  12:54  

I think it's time for the Debbie diatribe about certain vegetables that you want to plant before they get too far along. Oh, and there are vegetables that you will see at nurseries now that are in six packs or even in four inch pots. And they have a lot of growth to them. And for some of those, it would be fatal to try to transplant those.

Debbie Flower  13:17  

Well it wouldn't be fatal to the plant it would still survive. It just doesn't produce anything.

Farmer Fred  13:23  

It’s fatal to your diet. 

Debbie Flower  13:24  

Yes, yes. Yes. So you're talking about the cucurbits - the squashes pumpkin, cucumber, - they are best direct seeded. I believe you can and the seed packet will tell you and there are lots of places books, websites and things that will tell you yes, you can germinate them in a pot and then move them to the soil and that's true, you can but the problem is if they have more than about four leaves on them true leaves, okay, the first thing that comes up when they germinate is called the cotyledon or the seed leaf, and it was what was inside the seed. It's shaped much like the seed but it's bigger now because it's full of water and it turns green. But then you get leaves of different shapes, leaves with maybe sharper edges or indentations. They'll look different, the  veining will be different. Those are the true leafs, if you've got more than about four of them, when you put that plant in the ground, it will not reach its maturity that you're hoping for. It'll grow a little bit. I've had them grow to maybe three or four feet long. And they just limp along, never flower, never fruit, once their root system has become bound into that small pot. It doesn't grow out of it, even if you cut the roots when you put it in the ground.

Farmer Fred  14:40  

So what's a mother to do? 

Debbie Flower  14:42  

Start your own; start with seeds. Great project to do with  young kids yeah, direct sow. Probably the reason they get sold is people go out to buy their summer garden plants. They want a tomato, a pepper, a cucumber, a squash, let's say that'd be great combination and an eggplant. All right, the tomatoes and the peppers, you can buy as plants, that's fine, they transplant quite easily, the eggplant as well. But the squash and cucumbers don't do as well. So they're behind, they need to go in the ground when the soil is as warm as what’s needed for the tomato to go in the ground. But they need to go in as a seed. And it's just frustrating. You got this lovely tomato, you got this lovely eggplant, pepper. And then you got these holes in the ground where you put squash and pumpkin seeds, and cucumber seeds.

Farmer Fred  15:35  

And then there are those people who keep insisting on buying corn in six packs,

Debbie Flower  15:39  

It blew me the way away the first time I saw that.

Farmer Fred  15:43  

Yeah, corn really does come up pretty easy from seed. If you plant it in, you know, six inch spacing or so it depends on what varieties of corn you're planting but a lot cheaper that way, it is a lot cheaper. Now there's the case of hitchhikers, who you might be bringing home on the plant, which is another reason to pick up the plant. Look at the pot, look at the underneath of the pot. Look at the surface of the pot, maybe scratch the surface of the soil of the pot, because you don't know who you might find. 

Debbie Flower  16:10  

Right. One day  when I was teaching, we were moving things from one size container up to the next. And we popped a plant out of a about a three inch. And it was full of these round white slimy things. I'd say a whole third of the media was these round white slimy things. They were slug eggs. 

Farmer Fred

How pretty. 

Debbie Flower

Yes, yes, students are taking pictures with their phones. It was quite an event, had we not popped it out of the container, we wouldn't have seen them. So popping them out of the container is a legitimate thing to do. But you want to do it correctly. So you don't harm the plant. This isn't yours yet. So you know you break it, you buy it, I guess I don't see those signs at nurseries. But I wouldn't want to break somebody else's merchandise.

Farmer Fred  17:00  

The old saw on that was to ask an employee to do it for you.

Debbie Flower  17:05  

 Yes, if you're worried about it, ask an employee to do it. Otherwise, you just squeezed the container so that the media becomes loose. If the media is very dry, it's going to be the top that may all crumble. If it's  been in newly transplanted media that may fall off the top. But squeeze it all around so that it's loose, then put your hand over the top of the container. Spread your fingers. So the stem of the plant goes between your fingers, turn the entire thing upside down. So anything that falls out falls into your hand and lift the pot off. So you're not  pulling. No, no, no, no, don't pull, just lift the pot off, and you'll be able to see what's inside and grab the pot by the holes on the bottom and pull it up. And then you can just slide it back on, flip the whole thing over. Everything that fell out into your hand goes back into the top of the pot. And you get to see what you need to see. Slugs and snails like to hide in drain holes. And down the side of the media between the media and the pot because it's nice and moist and dark in there. And that's the environment they like the best. Ants, too. Yeah, the ants are back at my house. 

Farmer Fred  18:15  

And a nursery is a beautiful place for all these critters.

Debbie Flower  18:18  

yes, birds too. But you know, you got the good with the bad. Or the bad with the good. I guess that's the way to say it. 

Farmer Fred  18:26  

Have you ever bought a sizable shrub or a tree at a nursery and taken it home? And there was a bird's nest in it? No? Me neither.

Debbie Flower  18:34  

No.

Farmer Fred  18:35  

I wonder if that's ever happened. I bet it has.

Debbie Flower  18:37  

Yes. There was something in the news around Christmas time and somebody bought a Christmas tree and there was an owl and I don't know if there was a nest but there was an owl in it. Yeah, so I imagine it happens. Yeah. Okay. I know there are lots of hummingbirds at our local nurseries because they love the flowers that are there. And their nests are very small, maybe the size of a quarter. So they can easily be hidden.

Farmer Fred  19:05  

All right, so you bought some plants and six packs and four inch pots, lots of nice summer color, you bring it home, you set it on a table outside, perhaps. And you say, “I’ll get to this.”  But a week goes by two weeks go by, it's still in the original container. There's trouble coming. If you do that. Maybe just maybe, if you think you're not going to get at planting those plants the day you buy them, move them up, guess move them up to larger containers. Except  I wouldn't do that to  the curcurbits, the cucumbers and squash and  pumpkins that you might buy because I don't think besides not wanting to be transplanted when they're too far developed, I would think any transplantatation would sort of slow them down. 

Debbie Flower  19:56  

Yeah, I don't know for sure. I don't know if the reason they see To grow after they've had, like four leaves in a pot, and then you put them in the ground is because they're sensitive to  transplant at that point. Or if they're too root bound at that point, I honestly don't know the answer to that. But I just don't risk it. 

Farmer Fred  20:15  

For tomatoes and peppers, and your standard other summertime vegetables and even flowers too, especially if they're in six packs. You want to give those bigger containers if you're not immediately going to stick those in the ground.

Debbie Flower  20:29  

Right. It's amazing how much they grow. Yeah, once you move on to the next size container. 

Farmer Fred  20:35  

Yesh, it can actually reinvigorate a plant. But that doesn't mean okay, yeah, go ahead and buy that sick plant. That was the last one there at the nursery. No, don't do that. Yeah, or at least ask for a discount. Yes. If you think you can heal the dying, then try to get a discount out of it. So yeah, it really does make them better for a longer life. I'm thinking of tomatoes. A lot of people here in California will buy tomato plants during the first nice weekend in February. Even though,  soil temperature and nighttime temperatures aren't going to be conducive to plant growth for another two months. But they will have bought those plants. And they say, “I’ll take care of it until then.” And their idea of taking care of it is sticking it outside, maybe next to the house and in the original container, and hopefully watering it ,right?

Debbie Flower  21:27  

Yeah.There are a lot of plant sales in spring by organizations. The local university here is having theirs at the arboretum this Sunday. And I've I'm debating whether I'm going to buy anything, I have a couple of spots, I would like to try some plants. Because really, fall is for planting, obviously not for tomatoes and peppers and things that need heat. But for landscape plants fall is for planting. So if I buy anything this Sunday, it would be, for me, landscape plants. That's what I'm looking for. And I think  I will just pop them up into bigger pots and keep them in a place that gets regular water, which is probably in my greenhouse, which will be open, it won't get too hot in there and I’ll keep them until fall. But at least I’ll pot them up till I decide what I'm going to do. Potting up is a wonderful thing to do.

Farmer Fred  22:23  

All right. Did we help people out in picking out nursery plants?  We went down a lot of pathways. We've warned them about pests. We've warned them about diseases and other things.

Debbie Flower  22:36  

Fruits And overgrown plants.  Yeah, I think so. 

Farmer Fred  22:39  

and just moving them up in the world of pots, when you bring it home. Unless you're gonna plant it that day. Most people are impulse buyers. Yeah, but it's nice if you think you're going to the nursery and you think Okay, I gotta get some color for the house. Fine. Prepare the pots at home or the ground ahead of time.

Debbie Flower  23:00  

Dig the hole. I used to make that a rule. Dig the whole before I left. 

Farmer Fred  23:04  

Yeah, dig the hole. Have everything ready to go. That'll be certainly a good incentive to when you get home. Yes. Yeah. All right. Well, that's good parting words. All right. There you go. Go nursery shopping. They love to see you  it's Christmas time now there. 

Debbie Flower  23:18  

for the nursery, it's the season. 

Farmer Fred

Yeah. All right. Thank you, Debbie. 

Debbie Flower

You're welcome, Fred.

SMART POTS!

Farmer Fred  23:26  

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DAVE WILSON NURSERY

Farmer Fred

You have a small yard and you think you don't have the room for fruit trees? Well, maybe you better think again. Because Dave Wilson Nursery wants to show you how to grow great tasting fruits: peaches, apples, pluots, and nut trees. Plus, they have potted fruits, such as blueberries, blackberries, raspberries, boysenberries, figs, grapes, hops, kiwifruit, olives and pomegranates. All plants, that you can grow in small areas. You could even grow many of them in containers on patios, as well. It's called backyard orchard culture. And you can get step by step information via their You Tube videos. Where do you find those? Just go to dave wilson dot com, click on the Home Garden tab at the top of the page. Also in that home garden tab, you’ll find a link to their fruit and nut harvest chart, so you can be picking delicious, healthy fruits from your own yard from May to December here in USDA Zone 9.  Also in that home garden tab? You're going to find the closest nursery to you that carries Dave Wilson's quality fruit trees. They are in nurseries from coast to coast. So start the backyard orchard of your dreams at DaveWilson.com.

TIPS FOR STARTING A SCHOOL GARDEN

Farmer Fred

We're on the road today we're at the William Brooks Elementary School in Eldorado Hills, California in the Sierra foothills, east of Sacramento, and I am at the Brooks Garden of Learning, the William Brooks elementary school garden. It's an outdoor classroom. Students have the opportunity to enhance their understanding of what it is and what it takes to grow and maintain a vegetable garden. At Brooks, all classes can participate in monthly lessons. They get their hands dirty through interactive, hands-on gardening activity. Students plant their own vegetables, they watch them grow. They enjoy the harvest during lunchtime popups which feature food made from produce from the garden. And they even have a little farmers market where students can take produce home. It's called the Brooks Garden of Learning. And we are talking to the two people who started this, they are Master Gardeners here in El Dorado County, Christy Calderon and Shelley Joyer. And this is quite the project. Ladies, this is a beautiful garden by anybody’s stretch of the imagination. How much work do the kids actually do? It just looks like you throw money at a landscaper and up pops this garden!

Shelley Joyer  27:43  

I wish we could say we did. But it's a lot of blood, sweat and tears. We could spend all day here, but the kids do most of the work. The idea is that we get our community involved here, as well. So the kids we have the plants for the kids where they come in, they're able to plant the produce for that season. Bring grandma and grandpa, it's a family event. And we have, if we have any big things that go on here, we involve the community and request help from other people. So it works out well.

Farmer Fred  28:16  

Well, you have a thing here called the Brooks Garden Club. Which of you wants to talk about that? 

Christy Calderon  28:22  

So we are call it the “green team” and we meet twice a month on Wednesdays for an hour and those are the kids. We open that up to third through fifth grade. And those are the kids that really love gardening. So we've had the same about 22 kids for the last two years, and they come in and we work on a project like this last Wednesday we did our shrubbery tower over there. And they help us amend the soil and pull out the old crop and bring in the new crop. They get a little bit more hands-on in the garden versus their one hour they get a month.

Farmer Fred  28:49  

Let's describe the plants in the garden. First of all, you have lots of raised beds, you have lots of structures for plants to grow on. There's shade, there's full sun, so you can grow a wide variety of plants here surely.

Shelley Joyer  29:01  

We do, depending on the season, are able to grow right now we have about 30 different tomatoes. We have about I think  16 different peppers right now. But with our space what Christy and I have tried to do is maximize the space. Because if we had our choice, we would take over so much of the land here. We've tried to take over a lot and we have our cattle panel trellises, so we go up as much as we can. Some of the plants here that we've tried to incorporate include our pollinator native plant garden. We do a wildflower sunflower bed, we have as many herb beds as we can fit, as much as we can cram in here. You mentioned shade and sun, so we have the benefit of both. Yeah, things just thrive in this garden. I don't know if it's the love of the children or what, but things really tend to grow well, here.

Farmer Fred  29:52  

In my history of talking with people who have run school gardens, it’s usually the brainchild of an employee at the school, usually a teacher who decides, okay, let's have a garden. We can do science classes. We can teach kids how to grow things and have some fun. But then that teacher moves on, and it becomes a wasteland. And you were saying before we started that this is kind of what you found here when you got here. 

Christy Calderon  30:17  

Yeah, it was in August of 2022. And my neighbors across the street had moved in, and they were looking for a school for their kids. And they came to the school and they saw that the garden was overgrown. That's what initially started me. So I went as a new neighbor, I talked to them. And they said, “where do kids go to school?” I said, William Brooks, and they said, “Oh, the one with the overgrown garden right in the front”.  And I was like, No way. So then I went to the school office and asked who was responsible? And they said, Well, do you want to be? And I'm like, Sure. So in August, and it was super hot. my kids and I were out here ripping out, six to 10 feet tall weeds in each bed. And every lovely teacher had planted mint, they had planted lots of mint,  and that overtakes everything. So we pulled out mint for days. We smelled like mint and our hair and our clothes everywhere. But yeah, that was what initially started it. And then I just would go to elementary schools everywhere and look at their gardens and get ideas.

Farmer Fred  31:06  

Well, for people across the country who would like to start a school garden for their children or others’ children, there has to be some pitfalls or there have to be certain expenses. And seeing the structures that you have here, this didn't come cheap. So how did you finance this?

Shelley Joyer  31:22  

 I think you have to get creative. A lot of times, going back to when I talked about a sense of community, there's so many parents and staff that are willing to help if you just ask, I mean, some of our beds were already here from years and years ago, parents had built these beds. Yeah, our beds were built 1991. But a parent had volunteered the time. But there's parents, there's community, local organizations, we have some local companies here that love to volunteer or donate. So I think if you can find the time  the people that will come and help do that, that's really what has spurred us along is just finding donations.

Christy Calderon  31:57  

Family members giving us money to facilitate our dream to make this garden come to life for our kids.

Farmer Fred  32:03  

That's an important part of it . It is the ongoing donations to keep it going. What do the students here bring in the way of labor to this garden?

Shelley Joyer  32:12  

 Okay, so the kids, they get down and dirty in the yard. One of the things I talk about a lot is bringing value. And if something is going to be funded or sustained, it needs to bring value. And when you have teachers that have a busy schedule, and have a lot on their plate, having them be involved in the garden, it needs to bring value to them and the kids. And so what we do here, when you say,  what do the kids do? Their lessons in the class and in the garden here are all hands on. And they're learning from master gardeners, taught Master Gardener content, we're teaching them IPM, we're teaching them composting, soil amendment, for grades TK (transitional Kindergarten) through five, and they're out here doing all the work, they're digging, they're assembling. They're planting, you name it, Christy and I are great pointers and facilitators. But you know, the kids want to do the work. And when you give them the option to do it, they want to do it.

Christy Calderon  33:09  

And you know, everyone has an opinion. “Oh, you have TK do the same as fifth grade?” We absolutely do. Because I mean, like you said, you got to give them credit. They can do more than you think they can. And they'll eat some of these. A lot of the parents are like, “Oh, my kids don't like tomatillo salsa”, we're like, yes, they do, because we pop up with their lunch and we provide them salsa with tomatoes. And most kids thought they were apples. They all loved it. You know, parents ask us for recipes for the smoothies that we've made and the salsa and then that free pesto. My kids said they ate that at school, like they did with us.

Farmer Fred  33:39  

Garden fresh eating, which is a big lesson in itself. Now you used the term, Shelley, earlier - IPM - which we should explain means Integrated Pest Management. And that is a great road to go down, especially in this day and age where you're trying to get away from synthetic pesticides into doing something that's more, shall we say earth-friendly, Integrated Pest Management just talks about using cultural, mechanical, physical controls to subdue a pest problem or even living with the pest problem.

Shelley Joyer  34:08  

Yeah, absolutely. And we incorporated that for the children because we have artichokes, and our artichokes were infested with aphids. And we thought, what a great way to teach them about integrated pest management by allowing those students to release ladybugs to combat an aphid problem. And so we have that curriculum for them to learn they do all the work, they release the ladybugs and if you can come out and see kindergarteners releasing ladybugs, it's magical. And at the same time they're learning so they by the time they graduate fifth grade, these kids will be learning about all of this and whether they use it or not. That's up to them but they'll have the knowledge to be master gardeners if they want to. So

Christy Calderon  34:51  

yeah,  in the beginning  we were so concerned about our lesson plans like being different, changing it up being different. And a teacher was telling me during the summertime, we were here like every day in the summer. The teacher said, “don't change it every year, they're gonna take something different”. So, we did composting every single year. they'll get composting, but every single year, they'll take something different from that lesson. Obviously, we'll try to make it a little more fun, but we're still learning the general foundation of it. 

Farmer Fred  35:15  

attracting beneficial insects is a great way to help subdue a lot of pest problems, but to attract the beneficial insects, not only do you need flowering plants for them for the pollen, but also a place for them to raise their young. The good bug hotel, I like to call it. And you've got a wide selection of vegetables and ornamental plants here. That could be excellent bug homes to have year round, to keep the good guys here.

Shelley Joyer  35:42  

We do.  one of the things for people that are looking to start a school garden, it can be very daunting. We learn as we go. Christy's taking notes, because we want to learn all the time. We learned today from you, Fred, and from our people at Master Gardening, the idea of this good bug hotel we need to have these grasses and barley and wheat. So Christy and I are like we need to establish that here. But we learned that as we go, we didn't know that at the beginning. We do have these things here. But it wasn't like on day one, we knew to put this here or there. Yes, it's trial and error. So any parent or teacher out there that is looking to do something like this, just start. Just start with something small if you need to, and you learn as you go, and that's kind of the fun part about it. In every season, we try to incorporate something new. If we're at a nursery and we see a plant that we've never seen that's a native, we're like yes, let's get that for the garden.

Christy Calderon  36:32  

Nurseries everywhere we go. Our family loves it.

Farmer Fred  36:35  

Well there are a lot of good nurseries around here, so you have no lack of inspiration for things to pick and I'm sure the nurseries in the area too, are very helpful and that's a great alliance for a school garden to form no matter where it is, with your local nursery people.

Shelley Joyer  36:49  

Absolutely. We actually are famous at… are we allowed to say nurseries on here? is that okay to say names? Okay.  Our local Green Acres Christy and I walk in there like and the employees say, “hey garden ladies!”

Christy Calderon  37:01  

We are the ones from the school garden. yes we are. 

Shelley Joyer  37:05  

We get asked if we are twins  all the time. Are you sisters? Are you twins? But they're great to us and they are so like helpful with questions that we have or if they get something new when so yes forming those alliances and relationships just to learn from them is fantastic.

Farmer Fred  37:23  

Talk about the farmers market.  Do the students actually participate in this? Is it an actual place where you can buy food?

Christy Calderon  37:31  

So we can't sell it, it is essentially a donation. So we've had two farmers markets so far, one ranging from  my very first year we had so much produce. it was so cool!  25 bags of salad for families and all these  edible flowers. I went to Soil Born Farms to get ideas and that's where I bought all the plants and they gave me great ideas for school. But  we do work at it. We set it up over in that little area over there and parents can come after school and they bring a lot of people, they brought their little baskets and they kind of shopped and donated. It was all donation based. We had beautiful wildflower bouquets. And they are a lot of work, trying to try to find some other ways to do it. But now the kids love it, it is so much fun. Their favorite thing is when we go to their lunches about every two months and we pop up at their lunch, we stay for three hours and we serve them. We make them food and it's their favorite day, it's like going to Costco for them, trying samples.

Farmer Fred  38:22  

Are a lot of parents involved in this, too?

Shelley Joyer  38:26  

Yeah, we have quite a few parents that help us out here. They're part of the green team, which is our garden club. They love to come out here and be part of it. It's really fostered a sense of community. As I've mentioned, we have not only parents, but people in the neighborhood. There was a gentleman named Kenny, if you're out there listening to this Kenny, hi. He walked by one day and he stopped and he said, “I just want to tell you, what you're doing is amazing. I walk by here every day on my walk. And what you have done brings me so much joy.” He doesn't even have kids here. So those kinds of things. 

Christy Calderon  38:57  

And they come and they help. Someone gave us $100. They left it in the school office for us. He's lived here for 17 years. So he's never seen it look like this. And we're not the people that go, we don't do half-assed. We go 100%, fully. Ask our families.

Farmer Fred  39:11  

Your enthusiasm could sell the project. That is very obvious. But how did you get the school on board originally? Now, in your case, as you mentioned, Christy, was the fact that they were looking for somebody to do it and you happen to walk in. But I think for some parents who want to start a school garden, there might be resistance at the school or some bureaucratic nonsense to deal with and how do you do deal with that?

Shelley Joyer  39:37  

I think just as a rule of thumb would be to go to the principal, start with the principal. And ask if they would be interested in starting a school garden.

Christy Calderon  39:44  

This makes them look good, too. When you have these programs, this attracts students from other areas. this is important for them, versus if you have like a great computer lab that might attract parents to that yeah, I just went straight into the office and then they set me up with the principal and she was onboard and had came from a school that had an amazing garden. And that's  what I think helped start here.

Shelley Joyer  40:05  

When you talked about funding, the gardening is not free, my husband would agree. You know, one of the things is funding and local, and many local schools have a PTA or a parent group that raises money for the school. And that's a great way to start funding, just starting with funds. They're more than willing, depending on the school, if you talked to him to help with that, and our local PTA does help with funding for our garden. But he had talked about our farmers markets where we put out produce that the kids have harvested, and people are able to take that and we do ask for donations. So we don't charge for our farmers market. But that is a donation based activity that we do that also helps fund certain things here in the garden. 

Farmer Fred

Do you have any other fundraisers? 

Christy Calderon  40:58  

Not yet, but we're looking for ideas, maybe there's gonna be a Farmer Fred fundraiser for the William Brooks garden. I’m thinking something like the East Sacramento Area garden tour, we went to that last weekend. And that's put on by David Lubin elementary school, and they do a fantastic job. And I feel like that would be low cost. And you get the local nurseries to donate some plants and then advertise for them. But I would love to do something like that. We have incredible backyards. And we're not just saying that, but we really do.

Farmer Fred  41:20  

This is an excellent setting too, for  a community center. Because you've got the elementary school, you've got little league fields, and you have a park here. So this is really a hub of activity year round. And if you drive through here, or walk through here, you're gonna see this garden.

Christy Calderon  41:40  

I guess Jeff Mitchell baseball park is down there and kids drive through nonstop, we're here all the time. So we know everyone's cars and what they're doing. We know their neighbors on the weekends when we're working in here, that walked by and everyone sees this garden. And I've actually after school have seen a couple of kids just coming in here and sitting. And I thought, oh, that's what it's about. Because we thought about putting locks on the gates. And we're like, no, we want it open. This brings a sense of community. Also, during school hours, a lot of our behaviorists have used this area for social emotional type of situations, they brought some kids in here, it's really helping with that, which you know, they have a nice place in this garden, they come and rake the decomposed granite or carry the wagon around. And that's really cool. Everyone's able to use it. It's been really neat. That's cool to watch.

Farmer Fred  42:21  

I know you guys have the lesson plans that have been derived from  Master Gardener classes. And that's an excellent idea. Do other teachers here use this as a classroom?

Shelley Joyer  42:32  

I think so. Not as much as outdoor classroom, there have been times where kids come out here to read. They're also one of the benefits of the garden is just recently, the classes have had outdoor celebrations. And so they'll bring that out here. And instead of being in the class, where they are, most of the day, they come out here and have an outdoor celebration or a picnic with the principal. It's just a great outdoor spot. it's just getting outside of the classroom and being in a different location.

Christy Calderon  43:00  

So we do actually create our lesson plans pretty much 100% we take all the information from the Master Gardener class, we take it from kidsgardening.org. and from Alice Waters, who has all of her free lesson plans on there and just kind of make it our own. So it's fun. And then we hit the educational aspect of it. That's a great website (kidsgardening.org).

Farmer Fred  43:19  

Yeah. Let me repeat that. For those of you listening who want more information about starting a school garden, that organization you mentioned, kidsgardening.org. I believe they're based in Vermont, you get a lot of good information and tips on how to go about this whole process. Now if people want to make a donation to the Brooks Bears school garden, how can they do that?

Shelley Joyer  43:40  

Yeah, we have the William Brooks elementary website that has a link for donations. And also if people just want help start a garden, Christy and my motivation, we see how beneficial these gardens are and how much value they bring. We'd love to help people get started, follow us on Instagram (betweentwoshrubs). 

Christy Calderon  43:59  

We have videos, recipes that we've made for the kids at the lunch popups, different activities we're doing with the kids, and just the progress that's been fun.

Farmer Fred  44:09  

 It’s betweentwoshrubs on Instagram.

Shelley Joyer  44:13  

Find us there. It's actually really fun. And for people that are wanting to start a school garden, we put our lesson for the month up there. We put ideas of what we're doing in the garden, we created the signs for the garden. That's not something like revolutionary, but we created signs to label our plants. Those are the kinds of things we put on there that can give people ideas of what they can add, the different plants. So hopefully it's a wealth of information or at least a start.

Farmer Fred  44:38  

It looks to me like it's it should be a science laboratory. 

Shelley Joyer  44:42  

Oh, thank you. It should. and that's something that we can… I have some of these pests crawling on me right now and  how wonderful it is.

Farmer Fred  44:49  

Well, until you identify it, we can't really call it a pest! 

Shelley Joyer  44:53  

I have my monocle in my bag. I should whip it out right now and determine what we have here.

Farmer Fred  44:59  

You're At the Brooks Garden of Learning, I imagine that you have a lot of dreams of garden projects that you want to complete here. For the students, especially. And looking around here, I'm thinking, too, this place could use a greenhouse. What are some other things besides a greenhouse that you guys would like here?

Christy Calderon  45:17  

Ideally, I would like a taller fence because we are having major issues with rodents and you know, the deer can hop this fence. Ideally, I'd like to fence it all the way around and also have that greenhouse fenced in, maybe with two little bistro tables and two little cute chairs in front of it, make it inviting. Right

Farmer Fred  45:35  

Right now it's a chain link fence. That's about five feet tall and that's not going to stop any deer.

Shelley Joyer  45:39  

I mean, Christy and I lay awake at night thinking of things. We have our goals and visions for the garden, such as  how can we make it even better than it is today? What would the kids enjoy? What would they benefit from and keep it sustainable? Like we said, a greenhouse for starting seeds and allowing us to grow those type of plants is something that is on our wish list of just being able to do that. We've been given a little bit more land here to do an orchard, a William Brooks orchard for the students. And so Christy always goes big. Christie wants 12 fruit trees, citrus trees that would encompass that area. And the idea that those would have a raised bed, I mean, how cool  to have like a four by four Redwood bed around each of them, around each of those fruit trees? Yeah, all these things are goals. And I think having a vision of  keep it going and keep it growing is really a good and healthy thing for a garden. 

Christy Calderon  46:38  

We made this happen in a year and a half. Obviously when we did the fruit trees over there we got deer which can get that. So if our fence could be extended somehow, obviously, at least aesthetically look pretty. But I think that's something that we definitely dream of. I do think about that almost weekly, how I would like something that would work because we're losing plants.

Farmer Fred  46:55  

You have a lot of bird perches here. You've got the cattle panels, bent in the shape of arches, but you also have a lot of good thick poles holding up a trellis with strings that I bet birds would like to perch on, to look for bugs on your plants. So you're on the way to having a bird attractive garden.

Christy Calderon  47:16  

Is that a good or bad thing?  Last year we planted  41 Different tomato plants here. we did not see hardly any tomatoes. I doubt somebody was coming in and taking them they had to have been the birds or squirrels or somebody was living their best life eating Caprese salad.

Shelley Joyer  47:32  

Do you think that's bad to have the posts to attract the birds?

Farmer Fred  47:34  

No, you want birds. 

Christy Calderon  47:36  

They eat the pests and stuff, but they also eat the vegetables.

Farmer Fred  47:40  

Well, if you're worried about your fruit trees, when you get the fruit trees, if you keep them at six feet tall, they're easier to net. And that'd be a good lesson for the kids too, about how netting keeps the birds out. And you put it on as the fruit starts to develop. And you take it off when the fruit is ready to ripen or you have openings to get in and out. And you guys do a lot of traveling to  look at various gardens. I'm sure you've been to the Fair Oaks Horticulture Center. And you've seen that and just the various gardens that they have and their systems for netting. So as you travel and see all these gardens, you're gonna get ideas, and go “Yeah, we need that for our garden”.

Shelley Joyer  48:17  

We do that all the time. It's like stopping for yard sales. We stopped for gardens and any type of nursery. But we get most of our ideas there. And that's why we hope people can get ideas for us  to share ideas, that we have seen and picked up on our travels or in our stops. And we translate them either here or can share that with someone. The cattle panels you see, they are all  over social media now, but that was something we did two years ago. It’s not like we're this genius and the kids love walking through a tunnel of pumpkins and cucumbers and squash.

Farmer Fred  48:52  

Now you also have that you're using for raised beds you have cattle troughs in the bare metal cattle troughs. Now here's a hint for you that the kids might have fun doing is those cattle troughs can be painted if you use tractor paint. And if you buy  tractor paint, something like Kubota orange or Ford blue, or International Harvester Red, or John Deere yellow and green. They can have fun painting those troughs.

Christy Calderon  49:17  

That's a fantastic idea. And  I am a big believer of quotes. I will say at that David Lubin elementary school what drew me there is all their quotes everywhere, from Maya Angelou, Dalai Lama,  all their amazing quotes. So you know, a child could be having a bad day and see that and that just might change the whole trajectory of their day.

Farmer Fred  49:36  

This is great, too. We should mention the fact that you have these inspirational slogans and sayings all throughout the garden here that gives kids some ideas.

Shelley Joyer  49:47  

Yeah, it's  uplifting and just to see a sign that says, “you belong”, or “good day sunshine”, and we have one that reads, “you belong among the wildflowers” plus  a lot of Beatles quotes  and just fun things and bright colors that hopefully spark joy and excitement for being out in the garden.

Farmer Fred  50:06  

Well, it's excellent. It's the Brooks Garden of Learning here at the William Brooks Elementary School in El Dorado Hills, California. If you want more information, I imagine lots of pictures, too, about this beautiful garden. You can find on Instagram at betweentwoshrubs. and you haven't been sued yet by Zach Galifianakis.

Shelley Joyer  50:23  

No, But maybe after this he will see our garden.

Farmer Fred  50:30  

Very good. Christy Calderon and Shelly Joyer, you've done a great job here. Continued success. 

Shelley Joyer  50:35  

Thank you so much, Fred, for being out here. It's so much fun having you.

Christy Calderon  50:38  

Thanks for coming. This is amazing.

GARDEN BASICS - HELP SPREAD THE WORD!

Farmer Fred  50:46  

OK, here’s your garden to-do list for the day: 

• Spend some quiet time in the yard. 

• Walk, converse, smell and touch all your plants. Enjoy the texture, the aromas, the color combinations, the structure. 

• Admire the natural amazing artwork of plant leaves, and check both sides of those leaves for eggs or insects. 

• If you’re checking for eggs or bugs on your plants, make sure they are the bad guys, not the good guys, before you shoo them away.  

• Take a seat out there, and watch and listen to the visitors to your yard, from insects to birds to four footed creatures, some of whom may be of dubious benefit.

• And, if you would please, help spread the word to your gardening friends and family about the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred podcast. 

• Leave a thumbs up or a comment on the show at Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts, that let you comment or share, including our home page, GardenBasics dot net. And if you subscribe, leave a comment, share and a thumbs up, as well, at our newsletter, Beyond the Garden Basics, which is on Substack. You can find a link to all of these in today’s show notes.

Farmer Fred

Garden Basics with Farmer Fred comes out every Tuesday and Friday and it's brought to you by Smart Pots. Garden Basics. It's available wherever podcasts are handed out. For more information about the podcast, as well as transcripts of the podcast, visit our website, gardenbasics.net . And that's where you can find out about the free Garden Basics newsletter, “Beyond the Garden Basics”. And thank you so much for listening.