354 Lawn Substitutes

Fred and Debbie Flower discuss the trend of lawn elimination and alternative landscape options to save water.  They explore lawn alternatives that require less maintenance and water, such as no-mow lawns, fescue varieties, and groundcovers like dymondia, kurapia, and clover. They also discuss the need for proper irrigation and maintenance in all types of landscapes.

Previous episodes, show notes, links, product information, and transcripts at the home site for Garden Basics with Farmer Fred, GardenBasics.net. Audio, transcripts, and episode chapters also available at Buzzsprout.

Pictured: Lawn Substitute/Groundcover Test of Mow-Free Fescues

Links:
Farmer Fred’s Ride for the Kids. Donate Now!
Subscribe to the Beyond the Garden Basics Newsletter https://gardenbasics.substack.com

Smart Pots https://smartpots.com/fred/
Dave Wilson Nursery
HeirloomRoses.com (with the FRED discount link)

Other links/notables mentioned in today’s podcast:
Farmer Fred’s Ride for the Kids
UC Davis Arboretum All Stars
Alternatives for Lawns (California Native Plant Society)
Native Groundcovers for California
Cal Flora (native plant database for California)

Book: Lawn Gone!: Low-Maintenance, Sustainable, Attractive Alternatives for Your Yard by Pam Penick

Website: SF-based Vision Designs' "Four Water Saving Plants to Replace Your Thirsty Lawn"

Got a garden question? 

• Leave an audio question without making a phone call via Speakpipe, at https://www.speakpipe.com/gardenbasics
• Call or text us the question: 916-292-8964.
• Fill out the contact box at GardenBasics.net
• E-mail: fred@farmerfred.com 

All About Farmer Fred:
The GardenBasics.net website

The Garden Basics with Farmer Fred Newsletter, Beyond the Basics
https://gardenbasics.substack.com

Farmer Fred website: 
http://farmerfred.com

The Farmer Fred Rant! Blog
http://farmerfredrant.blogspot.com
Facebook:  "Get Growing with Farmer Fred"
Instagram: farmerfredhoffman
Farmer Fred Garden Minute Videos on YouTube

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Thank you for listening, subscribing and commenting on the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred podcast and the Beyond the Garden Basics Newsletter.

Chapters

• 2:59 Lawn Substitutes, Pt. 1
• 14:10 Smart Pots!
• 16:05 Farmer Fred's Ride for the Kids!
• 18:09 Lawn Substitutes, Pt. 2
• 32:58 Dave Wilson Nursery

Transcript

354 TRANSCRIPT LAWN SUBSTITUTES

Farmer Fred

Garden Basics with Farmer Fred is brought to you by Smart Pots, the original lightweight, long lasting fabric plant container. It's made in the USA. Visit SmartPots.com slash Fred for more information and a special discount, that's SmartPots.com/Fred.

Welcome to the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred podcast. If you're just a beginning gardener or you want good gardening information, you've come to the right spot.

Farmer Fred

In today’s episode, America’s Favorite Retired College Horticulture Professor, Debbie Flower and myself tackle some comments sent in by listener Wendy, challenging the conventional wisdom of lawn elimination to save water, suggesting instead a more measured approach: reducing lawn size while preserving its benefits, such as a lawn’s cooling effect on homes.

We explore Wendy's observations about common landscaping failures, such as the tendency for new non-lawn landscapes to devolve into weed-infested patches. 

Transitioning from lawns to alternative landscapes raises questions about sustainability. Wendy’s experiences with various materials, like river rocks and decomposed granite, reveal similar challenges in weed management and aesthetics over time. 

Our conversation also touches on lawn alternatives that require less maintenance and less water. We examine resilient options like no-mow lawns, fescue varieties, and ground covers such as daimondia and clover, all while assessing their durability against foot traffic and dog urine. 

We caution against over-reliance on artificial turf, discussing its environmental impact and maintenance needs, including the degradation of its appearance over time. Despite extensive research on lawn replacements, we also acknowledge that sometimes less is more—by embracing native plants that foster biodiversity, attract pollinators, and reduce water reliance, we can enhance our gardens' ecological value.

Throughout this episode, we stress the importance of localized advice in gardening and the need to continuously educate ourselves about the plants that thrive in our unique ecosystems. We conclude with the message that no matter the garden style—traditional lawn or innovative substitute—proper maintenance remains the linchpin for success. Whether you enjoy working in your garden or prefer a hands-off approach, the universal truth is that every landscape requires an investment of time and care.

We’re podcasting from Barking Dog Studios here in the beautiful Abutilon Jungle in Suburban Purgatory. It’s the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred podcast, brought to you today by Smart Pots and Dave Wilson Nursery. Let’s go!

LAWN SUBSTITUTES Pt. 1

Farmer Fred:

 Here on the Garden Basics Podcast, we try to answer your garden questions and comment to your comments that you might leave on our social media sites, such as the “Get Growing with Farmer Fred” Facebook page. And we had a post up there recently about the benefits of sheet mulching and how to do it if you want to remove your lawn to put it in a garden. And Wendy wrote in with a very interesting comment. And Debbie, perhaps we can mull this over.

Debbie Flower:

 All right. I'll put on my thinking cap.

Farmer Fred:

 Yeah, and bring peace to the world somehow. Wendy says, “I drive around my area and see so many attempts to eliminate lawns. Why not just lessen the large lawn and yet preserve the favorable effect of less thermal load for your home that a lawn can provide? People start off with great intentions, but what comes next rarely is successful. By that, I mean how many different ways can we just end up growing weeds? And those weeds end up in my yard and other people's yards and cause my family shedding more sweat and use of more chemicals, be it pebbles, river rocks, black mulch, decomposed granite, or having a giant mounds of grasses in the landscape.”

Debbie Flower:

 That sounds familiar.

Farmer Fred:

 Wendy goes on to say,  “They all tend to turn to weed patches. Then there is the best attempts at irrigation. How do you repair those systems once they start failing as a result of our scorching hot sun under such a matrix? Because few of these drip irrigation systems have enough ultraviolet resistance to weather than to last more than a couple of summers. Absent a real sustainable plan, most folks, and a lot of landscape people as well, do not create a sustainable result. Those are just my observances over the past several years.” 

And Wendy, I think we have all had those observances for at least 10 years here in California when the first drought took place and then people were being paid. In California, it was called the “cash for grass” program where the state would issue a check if you sent them proof that you tore out your lawn and put in another landscape.

Debbie Flower:

But the amount they gave was not enough to have a grid plan and a proper installation, I have to say.

Farmer Fred:

 Yes, or an irrigation system that's up to snuff. And heaven knows, we've both seen retrofitted landscapes where the lawn was taken out and people had no idea what to put in, so they just put in rock, colored rock. Some of them are very pretty colored rock, but in time, the colored rock kind of fades and weeds pop up because, well, you know, dirt blows around and dirt gets wedged in the rocks and that's a perfect place for weeds to grow.

Debbie Flower:

 And we get some rain in the wintertime and there are the seeds there already. And yep, up come the weeds.

Farmer Fred:

So, Wendy, we agree with you on that point that no matter the landscape, you have to take care of the landscape. Yes. Whatever you have. And I like the idea of lawn reduction. Maybe not necessarily lawn removal, but lawn reduction. It reminds me of the Leo Tolstoy short story, “How Much Land Does a Man Need?” In this case, it's how much grass do you really need? Leo Tolstoy's answer was “six feet, from head to toe”. And basically what you would need would be just enough for your dogs or kids to play on. And that's about it. Do you really need a thousand square feet of lawn?

Debbie Flower:

I know a lot of people put lawn in because it's easier to care for.

Farmer Fred:

 Where does that come from?

Debbie Flower:

Well, the people who don't like to garden, they like the monoculture. You got one kind of plant. It takes one set of maintenance tools and techniques. They don't always necessarily care if it's real grass. Yes. Weeds are fine as long as it's still green and there's not a lot of exposed soil. I've run across a lot of these people. I've run across people who have put in swimming pools because they had too much property and they didn't want to have to grow things in it.

Farmer Fred:

 That is not a cheaper alternative, by the way.

Debbie Flower:

 No. Money was, I guess, not the issue then. It was time or something. I don't know. I was amazed. So, what else can you do that satisfies the need for less time in the garden, and still have a pretty garden?

Farmer Fred:

 I am always amazed on these garden surveys. National Garden Association is famous for their surveys

of gardeners. I remember one year they asked the question, “how much time do you want to spend per week working on your landscape?” The overwhelming answer was “30 minutes or less”. A lawn is not 30 minutes or less.

Debbie Flower:

 No. So, have a smaller piece of property.

Farmer Fred:

Get a condo.

Debbie Flower:

Yeah, yeah. Maintain it as a wild land. Get things that you have to be okay with what it's going to look not perfect in the off-season. And everywhere has an off-season. For us, it's the hot summer, the end of the hot summer. In other places, it's the snowy season, perhaps. Or put in things that you're willing to maintain or you're willing to pay someone to maintain.

Farmer Fred:

Yeah. And I still don't know how to say, “please raise your lawnmower blade” in Spanish. (“por favor levante la cuchilla de su cortadora de césped”). That’s if you do have a landscape service, especially here in California.

Debbie Flower:

Yeah. Yeah.

Farmer Fred:

 I don't like lawn abuse. If you got a lawn, take care of it right. And most lawns here in California, at least, are cool season varieties, like the fescue mixes. They prefer a long grass blade. Yes. They don't like short grass blades. What does like a short grass blade? Something like Bermuda grass is fine, but not your common normal lawn, which prefers a long blade of grass. And that's why you would set your mower height, blade height to its highest setting. Cut it high. Anytime you're cutting more than a third of a blade off when you mow a lawn, you're ruining your lawn.

Debbie Flower:

 You're stressing it.

Farmer Fred:

 Yeah. You're adding to its stress. A longer blade is going to give you more moisture retention, cooler temperatures in the soil. And in my mind, it just looks prettier. It stays greener.

Debbie Flower:

 You get longer roots, too. Yeah. So, you were talking about the giant mounds of grasses.

Farmer Fred:

 Yes. Hey, how's your giant mounds?

Debbie Flower:

 It's green. Okay. I have a no-mow lawn, which is basically a lot of fescue. And fescue, except for red fescue, fescue is a bunch grass. And so, it grows in much like if you look at a tall ornamental grass, there's a bunch of it. It doesn't spread real far. The bunch gets bigger and bigger and bigger. And that results in undulations in the lawn, high spots where there's lots of this bunch of fescue and then low spots where there isn't. But the fescue grows up and falls over. So, from a distance, it looks like a fairly even, if not short, it's certainly probably eight to ten inches tall. On these grasses, I have been watering once a week, which is a lot for me. Yeah. Yeah, because we've been over 110 degrees. Now we're down to 100, 103.

Debbie Flower:

 This coming week is going to be almost completely 100 or more. And that's hard on the plants, especially when it happens for 10 days in a row, and 12 days in a row. So, I have upped the irrigation a little bit, also because I find my husband standing out there with the hose pointing at the brown spots. But it has stayed green. It has tall blades. The blades themselves are at least a foot long. They grow up, they fall over, and it, I assume, I have not dug them up, they have deep roots. And that helps keep the grass green. The only other ground cover I have that is that satisfactory  at keeping weeds out although weeds do grow between the fescue clumps - mostly they're oak trees from the acorns nearby - and being able to walk on it is the dymondia margaritae. Dymondia is the only name i know for it's the only name i know.

Farmer Fred

Okay, but that's only good in a place like here where we don't have very cold temperatures and it's more meant for shade isn't it?

Debbie Flower:

It gets six to eight hours of full sun. 

Farmer Fred

Oh, does it? Okay. 

Debbie Flower

Yeah, the one patch. The other patch is in the shade. They're both doing well. You can walk on them and it doesn't harm them. They grow very low to the ground and once in a while I have to pull a weed out of it. So, the other technique, and we did this at my son's house, was to mulch with the cardboard, as Fred mentioned, this stimulated this comment. He had an unkempt lawn when he bought the place. mulch it with the cardboard which we soaked first and and then laid down and overlapped and all that good stuff and then bring in lots of arborist chips and spread them very thickly on top and we planted a row. the landscape was a little bit higher than the sidewalk and road that it was on and had a brick wall there not very high. we planted trailing rosemary at the edge which is evergreen and they grew together, and one very drought tolerant tree in the middle, a desert willow, which he says he never watered, although it got really big really fast. And that was it. Yes, there was some weeding involved, but it looked neat. It was easy to maintain, unlike the backyard, which was a lawn and not well maintained.

Farmer Fred:

According to the Solano County Master Gardeners, the common name for dymondia is called “silver carpet”.

Debbie Flower:

 Oh, okay.

Farmer Fred:

 And that's for this particular variety that you are talking about, the dymondia margaritae. It is spelled that way, Margaritae.

Debbie Flower:

 Yeah, A-E at the end.

Farmer Fred:

And they talk about it being hardy down to 28 degrees. Gophers prefer it to the lawn. So if you have gophers, you may want to consider that. But it does tolerate heat. So obviously, it works for you and you can step on it.

Debbie Flower:

Yes, I walk on it all the time. Other people come over and they're like, how do I get around this? Because it's now probably six feet across. No, you just walk on it.

Farmer Fred:

And you can propagate it by cuttings during its late winter, early spring growing season. Good to know. Yeah. I might borrow some of yours for my test patch out here, and see how it does.

Debbie Flower:

 Does it say anything about what dog urine does to it? 

Farmer Fred:

It does not. So, that would be part of the test.  To see if it could do what another lawn substitute ground cover couldn't do. And that other ground cover was Kurapia.

Debbie Flower:

 Kurapia.

Farmer Fred:

 Thank you. And that other ground cover was Kurapia, which is a relative of...

Debbie Flower:

Lippia. I thought they just changed the name. I didn't know they were two different plants.

Farmer Fred:

 It's a relative.

Debbie Flower:

Okay.

Farmer Fred:

So, Kurapia is a relative of the Lippia plant, which was popular back in the mid-50s, but was basically discarded because it was very aggressive and spread. And sure enough, Kurapia has its thug element as well, because where I have test grown it in my yard, it didn't want to grow there because of dog urine. But it was very happy, just a hop, skip, and a jump away from there. And it's spreading like crazy. Fortunately, you can pull it up fairly easily. And it does flower, little flowers. But if you mow it, and you can mow it, the flowers just come up a little bit shorter. Just like any plant that wants to survive, basically.

Debbie Flower:

Yes, like yellow star thistle.

Farmer Fred:

 Yeah, exactly. So, Kurapia, not so good there as far as a lawn substitute (because of its tendency to spread). 

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Farmer Fred

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FARMER FRED’S RIDE FOR THE KIDS!

Farmer Fred

On Saturday, September 28th, I’ll be riding my bike. “Well, what’s so unusual about that?” you might be asking yourself.

September 28th is the date of the Sacramento Century Challenge, a 100-mile bike ride along the Sacramento River that starts in downtown Sacramento and heads south to the Delta farmland region and back.

And yes, 100 miles is part of the challenge,  as is the bike I’ll be riding, a heavy, steel-framed Surly Midnight Special, that, by the way, is NOT an e-bike. Adding to the challenge will be the route’s pothole-filled river levee roads, as well as the ferocious headwinds that are usually in your face on the way back.

Making it even more of a challenge, I’m helping out the Sacramento Rotary Club raise money for the Sacramento Children’s Home Crisis Nursery.

The Sacramento Children's Home Crisis Nursery is the only program of its kind in Sacramento County and directly prevents child abuse and neglect by supporting families with small children at times of crisis. The nursery allows parents to bring their children ages newborn to five, for emergency hourly or overnight care during difficult times, with the goal of keeping families together and reducing the number of children entering foster care. 

We are calling it “Farmer Fred’s Ride for the Kids”, and we will have a link in today’s show notes with more information and how you can donate to help out The Sacramento Children’s Home Crisis Nursery.

So, how about it? Maybe pledge 10 cents a mile (that’s $10) along with a hearty, “You go, Fred!” Or a more generous one dollar a mile ($100), to give me the mental endurance for this all day ride. At my age, I’ll take my time, thank you, and enjoy the farmland scenery.

Again, please support Farmer Fred’s Ride for the Kids. Look for the link in today’s show notes, or at FarmerFred.com. Your support will help provide a safe place for local small children in need. 

Thank you for your support, let’s go!

https://www.justgiving.com/page/fred-hoffman-1723683653132?utm_term=GzewG4KyZ

LAWN SUBSTITUTES, Pt. 2

Farmer Fred

Let’s get back to our conversation with Debbie Flower, and we’re talking about lawn substitutes. And we’re talking about mistakes that are commonly made anytime a new landscape is put in.

Farmer Fred

So, Wendy, what we're trying to do here is just maybe come up with green alternatives that are lawn-like that might help matters, because I certainly agree with you as well, Wendy, that when people have removed a lawn and they've put in a new landscape, there are several mistakes that they have made, especially if they've hired somebody to do it. They don't have a personal investment in it then. And so they'll just go with whatever irrigation system and plant selection this landscape company decided.

Debbie Flower:

And you don't know how knowledgeable they are. A lot of landscape companies aren't well-trained.

Farmer Fred:

 Unfortunately. Yeah. And you need a personal investment in a front garden. Having said that, if you put in a front garden, it's a lot less work than a lawn. A lot fewer chemical applications. and a lot less water is needed, except when it's being established. 

Debbie Flower:

Right. The first year or first six months for sure you use water, but you have to use a lot of water on a lawn when it's getting established as well. Wendy mentioned in the irrigation part that the, she said, “few of these drip irrigation lines have enough UV resistance to weather more than a couple of summers”. That may be true, but you put mulch over them and  mine have lasted now 12 years. in my last house, it was about 15 before I moved, they do fine. I don't lose. If they're on the surface and exposed, that's one thing. And if you're using anything with a raised emitter, like on a stake, those get broken by animals, people walking over them, that kind of thing. But if you're using the inline tortuous path emitters, though, and cover them with mulch, i have not had a problem with them declining due to sun exposure

Farmer Fred:

It depends on the quality of the drip line that you've put in. Some are meant and are advertised as being able to be buried. some don't advertise that and they're a heck of a lot cheaper the ones that don't say that.  I've used drip irrigation for 40 years. It really is drip irritation, because you do have to maintain it. And if it is out of sight, even if it's just under mulch, there's a darn good chance that when you start digging up weeds- You hit it.  You break it. You got to fix it. Yeah.

Debbie Flower:

I've rarely had a dead spot because of it. I more often have a puddle because something has broken.

Farmer Fred:

Yeah. A connection comes apart. Right. It got pierced by a spading fork. Yep. Or whatever. And so, I'd spend on quality and make sure it is all the same type of irrigation, like the torturous path inline emitters and not a combination of emitters and above-ground sprayers. Right. Because the sprayers are going to lose out in that one. Right. They are not pressure compensating for the most part.

Debbie Flower:

 Right. And then you have to put them out correctly so you get the correct water dispersal on the soil.

Farmer Fred:

Which means you have to know your soil.

Debbie Flower:

You have to know your soil and you have to know how to space either your sprayers or your tortuous path emitters.

Farmer Fred:

Yep. And it would be a lot closer than you think. It might be 8 to 12 inches apart if you're running parallel lines.

Debbie Flower:

Yes, depending on your soil.

Farmer Fred:

Yeah. If it's sandy soil, it'd be 8 inches. If it's really clay soil, it might be 15 inches. Right. But you still have to maintain it. You still have to flush the system out at least once a year, if not once a month. And really, if you have a drip irrigation system anywhere in your yard, You really have to turn it on manually and walk it.

Debbie Flower:

 Yes, you do. And check it. Yes, you do.

Farmer Fred:

For whatever reason, I was up at 345 one morning last week and I went out front. and I noticed Old Faithful across the street. It was somebody's irrigation system that was on. It was a broken, I think it was a half inch line, because it was like a fountain of water spraying at an angle up, over and landing on his neighbor's pickup truck. I'm just hoping the windows are up in that truck. That can happen to anybody.

Debbie Flower:

Yes, and it does. Yeah.

Farmer Fred:

And if you got sprayers, like you said, Debbie, little animals, they like water too. They'll start nibbling on the quarter inch lines that connect those sprayers. So you have to maintain it. So Wendy, there are arguments for taking care of a lawn and keeping it, but it doesn't have to be as big as you know some estate holders might.

Debbie Flower:

 and you can also make it more of a meadow than a lawn. you can put other things in it that will fill in holes quickly and provide fixed nitrogen, like clovers. Or add wildflowers or bulbs. There are all kinds of ways to make it into more interesting. maybe you keep part of it as just grass for whatever, the dog, your kids to do gymnastics, whatever it is. Or you can make it into a meadow.

Farmer Fred:

There are several, shall we say, walk-on ground covers with varying degrees of walkability on them.

Debbie Flower:

 We talked about Kurapia.

Farmer Fred:

 That's one that you could have. And part of my test plot to find a dog pee-resistant variety, I'm currently trying clover. And actually, I'm surprised, if you give clover a heck of a lot of water when it's 100 degrees, it does fine.

Debbie Flower:

 The big if. Yeah.

Farmer Fred:

 So, it seems to be fairly pee resistant. I've tried ryegrass and I've tried the No-Mow native fescues, too. And both of those just failed miserably at not turning yellow.

Debbie Flower:

Yeah, I think they would both need water, rye more than even fescue. quite a bit of water. and they would respond negatively to dog urine.

Farmer Fred:

Now, if you do an internet search for walk-on lawn substitutes, the first things that come up is artificial grass. Artificial grass, I don't think, does anybody any good, except the lazy.

Debbie Flower:

 It's nice to look at. I watched a guy install it in a neighborhood near me. His yard is surrounded by about a foot-tall brick fence all the way around it. So from the street, it's a planter. It's a planter made of brick, at least on the street side. So from the street, you see the plants he's put in the planter and the green behind. I obviously have not seen it from the house.

Farmer Fred:

 Here's one Google suggestion about eco-friendly lawn replacements for high traffic areas. Number one is clover. Okay. Buffalo grass, which has been pursued around here as a low water use substitute. Buffalo grass, in my mind, I think, has a lifespan. Yeah. And it's not quite hardy in the long run. Sedges have been tested too, here, and have done better than buffalo grass as far as a lawn substitute goes. But again, then you have the problem of how much foot traffic can it take? For some reason, I think Google is the devil because I see one of their suggestions for a high traffic lawn replacement is Dichondra. I've never seen a neighbor so mad as a neighbor I had growing up, that decided to grow Dichondra. And this was in Southern California, which is more amenable to Dichondra, as opposed to here where it just gets way too hot. But in Southern California, as long as you didn't walk on it much and you gave it a heck of a lot of water, it looked fine. But you still have to go in and weed it. And that was his problem. Weeds were popping up all through it because a dichondra, unlike a grass lawn, which is a monocot, dichondra is a dicot.

Debbie Flower:

 You can't use the weed preventing chemicals. Right.

Farmer Fred:

And their final suggestion for an eco-friendly high-traffic lawn replacement option, are hard pathways. Yes. Yeah.  But I'm here to tell you that decomposed granite, if you've got gophers, will give way under your feet because the gophers dig under it and you don't see it until you step there and your foot sinks down six inches.

Debbie Flower:

 Well, on decomposed granite, weeds will grow in it as well.

Farmer Fred:

 Yeah.

Debbie Flower:

Unless you treat it with chemicals. Right.

Farmer Fred:

They also suggest moss.

Debbie Flower:

 Not for here. No. There are places it would work, but not here. Yeah.

Farmer Fred:

 And the artificial turf doesn't do your soil any good no.

Debbie Flower:

 It doesn’t.  And it's just more plastic in this world. The world does not need more plastic.

Farmer Fred:

There is one neighbor in this neighborhood of suburban purgatory here who insists on running their sprinklers on their artificial grass at least once a week. Expensive dusting? I don't know.

Debbie Flower:

 Well, it could be. It is dusty out there.

Farmer Fred:

 Yeah. Hmm. But, you know. If you got artificial turf, you got to take care of it. By the way, old artificial turf does fade as well.

Debbie Flower:

 Oh. The color changes over time.

Farmer Fred:

 Yeah, it goes from a deep green to a much lighter green.  Not quite yellow. And then there were those people who during the drought,  were ordered to cut their Water use. and they just turned off the water. And so, yeah, the lawn died. And, a lot of the officials were saying, well, yeah, but when the drought's over, you can just turn the water back on and the water will green up that area again. Well, that's very true. What did die, though, were all the trees and shrubs that had roots in that lawn area that were dependent on that water.

Debbie Flower:

 There was a period of time after the most recent drought, which ended about a couple of years ago. Every day when I went outside, I heard chainsaws because there were people taking down dead trees. It was really sad.

Farmer Fred:

 And they're still out there, too.

Debbie Flower:

 Yes, some of them are. Yeah.

Farmer Fred:

And it's not pretty. It's fairly sad. So whatever landscape you have, be it a lawn, artificial turf, plants, or California native garden. By the way, that's the one aspect we didn't talk about it. One big pro of having plants instead of a lawn, besides less water use, is all the beneficial insects it attracts.

Debbie Flower:

All the life out there. I was sitting in my yard this morning, drinking my tea, and the bird song was just fantastic all over the place. And watching the insects visiting the flowers and it's just lovely. And I love native plants for that reason. I have to say there's native and then there's local native. California is a huge state. And something that's native to the coast is not going to survive in my yard. Something that's native up at Lake Tahoe may not survive in my yard. So you have to know the conditions. Even if you're using natives, you have to know the specific conditions where you are. Also, the fact that I use lots of mulch, arborist chip mulch, prohibits me from growing some things that just rot in that kind of an environment. So, I love natives and I love the wildlife they attract and the potential for less water application in our very hot, dry climate, but they have limits as well. So, you need to know your plants.

Farmer Fred:

In this one suggestion I'm seeing on replacement plants for a lawn substitute,  they recommend creeping thyme and they're saying it can take a lot of traffic. it's a woody plant.

Debbie Flower:

 It's a woody plant. i've had trouble with it even overwintering. i don't know if it gets too wet in my yard. i don't have the best draining soil. so this year i planted one in a pot to see if if that one's going to overwinter better. but yes it's a woody plant. You step on it, you're going to break those stems. Yeah.

Farmer Fred:

 The other downside of a thyme as a ground cover would be it does produce flowers, which means you can't go barefoot through the park on that one because there'll be bees there.

Debbie Flower:

 That's a clover issue as well.

Farmer Fred:

 Yeah. And it's a Kurapia issue as well.

Debbie Flower:

 Yeah.

Farmer Fred:

 So, it depends on your tolerance for bees. Right.

Debbie Flower:

 I don't mind bees. I don't either. But there are some people for whom that is a big medical issue. Yeah.

Farmer Fred:

So, everybody has to make their own mind. Yes. Now, if I was king of suburbia, no, I won't tell you what I'd do. Would I be a dictator from day one? Yes. I was going to say.

Debbie Flower:

 Would you be the 3-1-1 cop? Around here, you can call 3-1-1 if you have a problem with your neighbor. Yes. Like they parked their car in front of your house for six weeks or they have too many weeds in their lawn.

Farmer Fred:

Well, I am against plant abuse. Yes. It could be a tree that's five years old and the original tree stakes are still attached to the tree.

Debbie Flower:

Ooh, that makes me mad.

Farmer Fred:

 Lawns that aren't maintained correctly. whatever you have in your yard, whatever plants, try to make them look nice. And I know sometimes that can be a challenge.

Debbie Flower:

 So, it's good to find places that locally test plants and tell you what the ones are that are easiest to grow and maintain.

Farmer Fred:

 Let me write this down. All gardening is local.

Debbie Flower:

All gardening is local. Yeah. For us here, the UC Davis Arboretum has tested plants and they call them the Arboretum All-Stars. And those are the ones that have done very, very well for them. It doesn't mean they're going to do really well for everyone, but it's a place to start. Talk to your local independently owned nursery for that as well. They know what people come in and ask questions about, and they know what people buy a lot of and seem to be successful with.

Farmer Fred:

 Check with your local nurseries when it comes to finding ground cover substitutes if you don't want a lawn and you don't want a lot of work, but whatever you choose, there is still maintenance.

Debbie Flower:

 You still have to maintain it.

Farmer Fred:

 And for low water use, that's another issue. And make sure your irrigation system is up to snuff and is applicable. And maintained. Yeah. Even a sprinkler system needs maintenance. That's another reason, once again, to turn your system on manually. Don't let it come on at 4 a.m. while you snore through it. Get out there, turn it on when you're awake, and make sure all the sprinklers are spraying where they're supposed to be spraying, not on somebody's pickup truck, and that they're not jammed and they're not broken.

Debbie Flower:

 Right. Yeah.

Farmer Fred:

 So, Wendy, no matter what you choose, be it a lawn or a ground cover or plants, they'll all require some maintenance. It all depends on how much time you want to put in working in a garden. Now, for us gardeners, we enjoy it.

Debbie Flower:

Yes, we do. I like gardening.

Farmer Fred:

 Would you clean up my front yard, please?

Debbie Flower:

No, today it's 100 degrees out there right now.

Farmer Fred:

See, that's the problem.

Debbie Flower:

 I have to do it very early in the morning or late in the evening.

Farmer Fred:

 Oh, then I have a choice. Do I clean out the plants or do I go for a bike ride? Guess who wins?

Debbie Flower:

 Yeah.

Farmer Fred:

Yeah. All right. We'll get it done. It's on the list. Just say that. Just make it your mantra. “It's on the list.” Thank you, Debbie. You're welcome, Fred. 

DAVE WILSON NURSERY

Farmer Fred

Summer is the time for harvesting all that delicious, fresh fruit from your backyard orchard. Summer is also the time for doing some fruit tree pruning. You’re not familiar with summer pruning to help control the size of your fruit trees? It’s called backyard orchard culture and you can find out all about it at Dave Wilson dot com.

That's the website for Dave Wilson nursery, the nation's largest grower of fruit trees for the backyard garden. At Dave Wilson dot com, they have  planting tips, taste test results, nursery locations and information about their revolutionary backyard orchard culture techniques, which explain how you can have a cornucopia of different fruit trees in a small backyard, and that includes summer pruning. 

Just go to dave wilson dot com, and click on the Home Garden tab at the top of the page. There, you are just a click away from the informative You Tube video series at DaveWilson.com. And as part of that video series, they will walk you through everything you need to know about backyard orchard culture.

Your harvest to better health begins at DaveWilson.com.

Farmer Fred

Garden Basics with Farmer Fred comes out every Friday. It's brought to you by SmartPots and Dave Wilson Nursery. Garden Basics, it's available wherever podcasts are handed out. For more information about the podcast as well as an accurate transcript, visit our website, gardenbasics .net. And there, you can find out about our newsletter, Beyond the Garden Basics. And thank you so much for listening and your support.