363 Weed Killers Just Got More Confusing

Listening and following the advice in this episode is more important than ever if you use herbicides, especially when we repeatedly chant our mantra: "Read and Follow All Label Directions."

America’s Favorite Retired College Horticulture Professor, Debbie Flower and myself start by tackling the widespread confusion surrounding Roundup, a brand historically synonymous with its active ingredient, glyphosate. As glyphosate use by homeowners is being phased out here in California and other states, we explore the newer formulations that have replaced it. Many consumers may assume that Roundup still contains glyphosate, but Debbie explains that consumers must be vigilant in reading and understanding the fine print of these products.

Our conversation also touches on alternative approaches to weed control, such as manual methods and less toxic solutions. But we caution against misconceptions surrounding "natural" products, like high-concentration vinegar. We point out the hazards associated with such products, which can be deceptively dangerous, and the necessity for registered pesticides to pass rigorous evaluations before being released to homeowners.

Today, it’s Episode 363, Weed Killers Just Got More Confusing. We’re podcasting from Barking Dog Studios here in the beautiful Abutilon Jungle in Suburban Purgatory. It’s the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred podcast, brought to you today by Smart Pots and Dave Wilson Nursery. Let’s go!

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LINKS MENTIONED IN THIS SHOW
Beyond the Garden Basics Newsletter (Sept. 24, 2024)  - Weed Killers
U. TN Extension - "Update on Roundup Branded Herbicides for Consumers"
30% Vinegar MSDS Safety Sheet
How to Read a Garden Pesticide Label

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Chapters

• 2:11 Weed Killers Just Got More Confusing, pt. 1
• 24:20 Smart Pots!
• 25:57 Dave Wilson Nursery
• 27:08 Weed Killers Just Got More Confusing, pt. 2

Transcript

363 Weed Killer Confusion TRANSCRIPT

Farmer Fred:

[0:00] Garden Basics with Farmer Fred is brought to you by SmartPots, the original, lightweight, long-lasting fabric plant container. It's made in the USA. Visit SmartPots.com slash Fred for more information and a special discount. That's SmartPots.com slash Fred.

Farmer Fred:

[0:20] Welcome to the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred podcast. If you're just a beginning gardener or you want good gardening information, well, you've come to the right spot.

Farmer Fred:

[0:31] If you use herbicides, it's more important than ever to listen and follow the advice in this episode, especially when we repeatedly chant our mantra, read and follow all label directions. Why? Because weed killers just got more confusing. America's favorite retired college horticultural professor Debbie Flower and myself start by tackling the widespread confusion surrounding Roundup, a brand historically synonymous with glyphosate. As glyphosate used by homeowners is being phased out here in California and in other states, we explore the newer formulations that have replaced it. Many consumers might assume that Roundup still contains glyphosate, but Debbie explains that consumers have to be vigilant in reading and understanding the fine imprint on these products. Our conversation also touches on alternative approaches to weed control, such as manual methods and less toxic solutions, but we caution against misconceptions surrounding natural products, like high-concentration vinegar. We point out the hazards associated with such products, which can be deceptively dangerous, and the necessity for registered pesticides to pass rigorous evaluations before being released to homeowners. Today, it's episode 363, Weed Killers Just Got More Confusing. We're podcasting from Barking Dog Studios here in the beautiful Abutilon jungle in suburban purgatory. It's the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred Podcast, brought to you today by SmartPots and Dave Wilson Nursery. Let's go!

WEED KILLERS JUST GOT MORE CONFUSING, pt. 1

Farmer Fred:

[2:12] Have you killed any weeds lately? On this episode of Garden Basics, we are going to talk about weed killers. The good, the bad, the dangerous. Debbie Flower is joining us, America's favorite retired college horticultural professor. And Debbie, it takes just a quick little visit down to the local big box hardware store to realize that there is a wall full of weed killers out there. And even in the cleaning aisle, you can find unauthorized weed killers. And it has gotten more dangerous and confusing for gardeners.

Debbie Flower:

[2:44] Yeah, I was going to say looking at that wall of herbicides is more confusing than anything. There are a lot of them. A lot of them have very similar names. But when you read fine print, they're not all the same.

Farmer Fred:

[2:57] That's for sure. And what is even more confusing is that one brand in particular, Roundup, has a lot of different formulations now for killing weeds. Very few of them, if any, have what people have come to know as glyphosate, the active ingredient, which was the active ingredient in Roundup for nearly 50 years of its existence. But glyphosate is being phased out and it's being replaced by a cornucopia of hard words to pronounce.

Debbie Flower:

[3:26] Yeah, glyphosate is almost synonymous with Roundup. I see comments on the Internet that people say, what is Roundup? Is Roundup glyphosate? Well, yes, they used to be the same thing. Well, that is absolutely not true anymore.

Farmer Fred:

[3:39] Yeah. And it's very confusing. And the bottom line, we could sum this up and go away and have lunch. But no, we could just sum it up by saying, “read and follow all label directions”. And it's more important than ever because of all the different formulations now of Roundup. It's interesting that the owners of the brand Roundup now have phased out glyphosate only to replace it with other weed-killing chemicals, some of which are even more dastardly than glyphosate, in a lot of situations, in the different formulations now what is called, Roundup. There are some soil sterilants or at least longer lasting chemicals that are on the label, along with information which you should follow. So you don't want to replant in that soil for anywhere from 14 days to, what, four months or more?

Debbie Flower:

[4:29] Well, the label might say four months, yeah. But tests done by universities have indicated it could take four years for that chemical to clear the soil and allow you to grow healthy crops or healthy landscape plants in that soil.

Farmer Fred:

[4:42] Fortunately, the University of Tennessee has come up with an excellent online page called “Update on Roundup Branded Herbicide for Consumers”. And they point out that “for decades, herbicides containing the active ingredient glyphosate have been sold under the trade name Roundup. These products are used for non-selective control of broadleaf and grassy weeds in landscape settings. Whether it be controlling problematic weeds in hardscapes like those that pop up in driveways or patios, or in ornamental or vegetable gardens or renovating a lawn. Roundup-branded herbicides are used widely throughout the United States. Usage is so common that practitioners often use the term glyphosate and Roundup interchangeably. However, this common technology has been confusing in recent years because certain Roundup-branded products sold to consumers now contain herbicides other than glyphosate, which some may have not realized.” How often have you decided to go down to the hardware store and get a package of weed killer? You know, you get Roundup because what? For the last 50 years, you knew it killed weeds. Well, it can do more than that if you buy the wrong formulation of Roundup. And there are several. We saw, what, four or five different Roundup-branded chemicals out there that can have very different purposes.

Debbie Flower:

[6:00] Yes, and some of them will kill everything to the point, and as you said, have a very long plant-back time, meaning a time before you can plant more into that space. And unlike Roundup, which is tied up in the soil, once you apply it, some of these last a much longer time, and that's what makes that plant-back time so long.

Farmer Fred:

[6:24] Explain the phrase, “tied up in the soil”.

Debbie Flower:

[6:25] We're dealing with chemicals. Soil has a lot of chemistry in it. And the chemical Roundup, when it hits soil particles, will react and become non-effective at that point. So, I mean, it won't be absorbed by the roots of other plants. And you can put new plants and seeds even into the soil and they will grow just fine. But that's not true of the chemicals now being used in bottles that say Roundup.

Farmer Fred:

[6:53] Let's go into that cornucopia of tongue-twisting chemicals that might be in a bottle of Roundup now. One of the first is Diquat. Talk a little bit about what Diquat is.

Debbie Flower:

[7:05] First, we have to know how to read the label. So when you look at the front of an herbicide, these are herbicides because they kill plants, herbs. On any pesticide, there will be an active ingredient list. And that is in very small print. That's where you want to look. And it will tell you what the active ingredients are, meaning the things that are going to actually, in this case, kill plants, and what percentage of the contents of the bottle are made up of that chemistry. And so you'll see one word would be diquat. And what you want to understand about these chemicals are several things. One is, is it selective or non-selective? A selective herbicide will kill only some plants. A non-selective herbicide will kill or damage. It isn't always death. Only a certain group of plants like grasses or the broadleaves, anything that's not a grass, anything that has a like clover in your lawn would be a broadleaf. Another category is the sedges. So you need to know if it's selective, is it going to harm the thing you want it to harm and is going to not harm the thing you want to remain in your garden. So you look at the label and you see that it's diquat. Diquat is non-selective. So that means it'll kill those broad leaves and those grassy weeds. And it acts very quickly. So some of the herbicides take a little longer to act and that allows them to become systemic, meaning they're absorbed by the plant and move into the roots and so they kill the plant from the roots all the way to the top. Dicot is not that way. Dicot acts so quickly that it just kills the top of the plant. So if your plant is a perennial and can die back and come back from a storage organ underground, this is not going to be the chemical for you.

Farmer Fred:

[8:52] And usually on these labels, there will be also in small print, a myriad of plants that you can apply it to. And remember, on any chemical label, if that plant is not listed, it's probably not going to work on that plant.

Debbie Flower:

[9:08] Right. And the label is not necessarily what's printed on the bottle. The label is the paperwork that's kind of under plastic and tape, often on the back of the bottle, which can be work to get into it. And it's small print, as you said. So it can be difficult to read, but you need to do it to preserve the plants you want to preserve and kill the ones you don't. The label is the law, meaning you have to use what's in that container the way the label says. So, it has to list both the weed you want to kill and the situation or plant that you want to preserve. So, it might say kills grasses in landscape plants or kills broad leaves in a lawn. Then those are the situations where you can use that herbicide. But legally, as far as I know, there are no herbicide cops who are going to drive into your yard and ask to see your herbicide and how you're applying it and what you're applying it to. However, they do actually exist, though, for commercial applicators.  And commercial applicators can be cited and they could be fined. And if it happens enough, they could be put out of business. A commercial applicator has to have a license to apply the pesticides. You have to take a test. You have to do continuing education to keep that license. And the license will cover different categories that the professional person can apply the herbicides to. So, if you're just hiring the kid next door to mow your lawn and you want them to apply some herbicide, that's illegal. They do not have a license to do so. The license means you can apply it for a profit, to earn something. It might not be money, it might be privileges of some sort. So, be aware of that. But nobody's going to come after you personally at your house when you apply these pesticides.

Farmer Fred:

[10:59] Yeah, Diquat is just one of the several active ingredients you'll find in most Roundup products now.  It used to be, the old Roundup, it would be glyphosate and inert ingredients. But now, it's usually three or four active ingredients. So, like in the four versions of Roundup that contain Diquat, they also contain other tongue-twisting chemicals too, like fluazepop or triclopyr, things like that. Diquat too, I could see the appeal of that in that it is rain fast within one to two hours after application. And if you're threatened by rain a lot, to have it be able to only need two hours of dry weather, that's fine. And I believe glyphosate was six hours of dry weather you needed. So I could see where that could be a selling point. But there is a problem with toxicity too. Acute toxicity of Diquat is greater than glyphosate. And that's measured by what's called the LD50. It's not a model of a Ford, although maybe it should be. But what is LD50?

Debbie Flower:

[12:01] Well, toxicity is poisoning. And acute means poisoning due to one exposure to the chemical. And tests are done on animals, very commonly rats, with these chemicals. And they're applied and the LD50 is calculated and that's the lethal dose, thus the LD, that kills 50% of the population, thus the 50. Legal LD50, lethal dose to kill 50% of the population. You might say, why just 50% of the population? Why not wait till every one of them is killed? Well, there are differences in all living things about their sensitivity to these things. And so, if you waited for them all to die, then, well, you'd wipe out the population for one, but it's not a good test of what's going to happen with that chemical. So, they're just looking at killing 50% of the population. So, the LD50 is expressed in milligrams per kilograms. It's milligrams of the active ingredient per kilogram of body weight. The smaller the number, the more toxic the chemical. If the LD50 is 30, it takes very little of the chemical. Milligram is a small number. Very little of the chemical to harm, and that's for only 2.2 pounds. So, to kill that rat as the tests are done. As the number gets bigger, the chemical becomes less toxic, less poisonous to humans.

Farmer Fred:

[13:28] Yeah, let's point out what all is in this publication from the University of Tennessee that updates people on Roundup-branded herbicides. And they have this chart, and it's a very easy-to-refer-to chart. We'll have a link to this in the show notes today. And there are three products on this list that contain Diquat along with several other active ingredients. One is called Roundup Extended Control. One is called Roundup Weed and Grass Killer Exclusive Formula. and the other is called Roundup Dual Action. And then it has a column for, can you use it in a lawn? In all these cases, the answer is no. Can you use it in landscape beds? In this case, it's not recommended. Can you use it in vegetable gardens?

Debbie Flower:

[14:13] No.

Farmer Fred:

[14:14] Can you use it in hardscapes? Well, yes. And that's the problem with a lot of these new Roundup formulations is some of them are strictly for hardscapes, for patios. And you have to read and follow all label directions. You just can't go grab a product off a shelf that has the prettiest Roundup label and take it home and think it'll do the job. The problem is it might do such a good job that you would have to wait a long time before you could replant. 

Debbie Flower:

[14:40] Yes.And the other thing about these Roundup products is they have very similar names. There's Roundup Weed and Grass Killer 3. There's Roundup Weed and Grass Killer exclusive formula. And they're two different things. They have different active ingredients and they can be used in different situations. We didn't see the Roundup Weed and Grass Killer 3. It contains glyphosate and pelargonic acid. We saw the Roundup poison ivy and tough brush killer those are the only two oh no there's three here listed, including Roundup extended control that have glyphosate in them glyphosate has been made illegal in other countries not in the united states in other countries and so as you can imagine that would limit the market for products with glyphosate in them and that may be the reason that the company is changing.

Farmer Fred:

[15:30] I think glyphosate has put the fear of god in a lot of chemical companies because i noticed the other brands of weed killer up there, I didn't see any with glyphosate that were current product. Now, we came across a few bottles of Roundup that look like they've been on the shelf a while that did have glyphosate. But other than that, it was all the new formulations.

Debbie Flower:

[15:49] Yes, we saw a few, very few that were glyphosate, the traditional product that Roundup used to produce.

Farmer Fred:

[15:56] What I don't know is if this is a state mandate, that maybe California has stricter laws about glyphosate and other states do not. For instance, this publication from the University of Tennessee lists three Roundup products with glyphosate. And I think of all the ones we saw, I don't recall seeing any Roundup products with glyphosate in it.

Debbie Flower:

[16:17] Well, just we saw the one looked like a really old bottle. You could barely read the label because it had rubbed off. And then we saw that was a big container. And we saw one on the way in in a display of a different kind of Roundup. The bottles looked very similar, but of the probably almost 100 bottles there, there was one that had glyphosate in it. So, it is definitely not available. And as you said, the other brands did not have glyphosate in them either.

Farmer Fred:

[16:48] What I'm worried about with these new formulations of Roundup is the time you need to wait before you can replant. If you go into a garden bed and kill weeds thinking, okay, now I can put in the vegetables or put in a new lawn or whatever. There are time limits where you have to wait. Diquat does not list one. Fluazepop, though, does list a half-life of 15 days. That limits plant establishment after application. Triclopyr talks about it's not readily absorbed by the soil and can persist upward of 46 days in the soil. And then there are longer ones.

Debbie Flower:

[17:26] Well, it's interesting that under the Triclopyr, although it says it can last up to 46 days, it varies by soil type and so they're saying you can establish a lawn from seed starting 14 days after application. That's a lot different from 46, but you could be really disappointed and not get a lawn if you started it at 14 days.

Farmer Fred:

[17:48] Then there are some mystery ones. There's another chemical called MCPA, and the average half-life of MCPA is five to six days, but it can persist in the soil one to six months based on soil moisture content. It's amazing what you can find in a label.

Debbie Flower:

[18:03] It sure is. I hope people read this publication that you will attach to this podcast because it is very helpful. It's done an excellent job of distilling the critical information one needs to know about these chemicals.

Farmer Fred:

[18:18] Another active ingredient that you might find in Roundup is called, I guess it's pronounced quinclorac, and it talks about how quinclorac can persist in soil for extended periods, limiting planting after application. In turf grass, it can be applied before planting, but must be delayed upwards of 28 days thereafter until juvenile plants mature. Another active ingredient, sulfentrazone, can persist for more than 120 days. And that's true for another one called, you say it, Imazapic?

Debbie Flower:

[18:51] I don't know. It's a guess on my part too. Imazapic sounds good. Broadleaf, everything. Like broadleaf weeds, as we talked about, grassy weeds and sedges, which are very difficult to control. And this has an average half-life of 120 days. So, that means it can be active for 120 days after treatment. But it can last in the soil up to 48 months. That's four years.

Farmer Fred:

[19:18] What happens when chemicals get into the soil? Can they spread by water and affect the roots of nearby plants?

Debbie Flower:

[19:24] That's a potential, yes. And the other thing this talks about is, are these chemicals subject to volatilization? Volatilization means they turn from the form you put them in, in this case they were all liquids, to a gas. And so if you were to apply them underneath a plant that you like and want to keep, and they could harm that plant by volatilization, they can become a gas, rise up under the plant, and you will see the effect of the herbicide on the desirable plant.

Farmer Fred:

[19:53] One of the new Roundup products is called Roundup Extended Control, and the old formulations had glyphosate in it along with imazapic and diquat. I'm sure that they have a new active ingredient, at least here in California, to add to that. And that's basically, you can get the clue from the name Extended Control. That sounds like a soil sterilant. And sure enough, with imazapic and diquat in it, it's going to be that period of time you mentioned that it could be before you replant. But in this situation, they think it's more applicable for patios, hardscapes, driveways where the weeds are popping up. But I noticed on some of those labels, too, it talked about... Test a small portion to make sure it doesn't stain your hardscape first.

Debbie Flower:

[20:40] Yeah. So you're spraying the cracks. That's where plants can grow. But there are chemicals that can cause the concrete or asphalt or brick or slate or whatever your hardscape is made from to discolor. So yeah, that could be a real disappointment if you spent... These are not cheap chemicals after you spent many tens of dollars buying this and then find out it's going to stain your hardscape.

Farmer Fred:

[21:03] Yeah. And we're not telling you not to use Roundup. What we're saying is you have to be more careful now when buying Roundup. If you choose to use it, be sure to read the label and that the plant is listed to be controlled on that label, don't think, well, if it controls Bermuda grass, it can control crabgrass. Well, not necessarily. One other way to maybe help you if you're looking for a lower toxicity formulation of Roundup is look at the signal word on the front of the label. And that's very important, isn't it?

Debbie Flower:

[21:38] Yeah, the signal word is very important. You'll even see it on large bottles of things like bleach that are used to disinfect kitchens or commercial kitchens and other places. So yes, and there are three of them classically. There's some more used in the industry, but homeowners would not be exposed to most of those chemicals. And they are caution, warning, and danger. And when I taught pesticide and pest control, I would say, remember it by remembering “cat will die” because, sorry, I have cats. I love cats. It's just the words that came to my mind when as a mnemonic, as a memory device. And it's the order in which  those signal words are said that matters. Caution means it is the least toxic or the least poisonous. Warning is the middle, and danger is the most toxic, most poisonous to humans.

Farmer Fred:

[22:37] Also, too, there will be portions in the full label, if you can pry that plastic open to read it all, about what you should wear if you're applying it. And that's very important.

Debbie Flower:

[22:48] Yes, it is. And the words I'm used to reading are long pants, long sleeves, shirts, socks, shoes, chemical resistant gloves, and eye protection. Eye protection is critical. You only get one set of eyes. People don't think about their eyes. Once you've hurt them, there's no going back.

Farmer Fred:

[23:11] So read and follow all label directions. Choose very carefully the Roundup product that you choose to use to control weeds. I still like to use a hoe myself.

Debbie Flower:

[23:22] A hoe between the cracks in the patio. I have a nice thin, it's almost like a scythe, but it's very much smaller. Curved blade that I can go in there and get things out with. It's great. I time my gardening. I check the weather. If it's going to be after a rainstorm, that's when I go out and start pulling weeds. And pull the weeds when they're young, before they set seed. Then they will not spread from seed. And they're smaller. They're a lot easier to get out of the ground.

Farmer Fred:

[23:50] Have you heard about mulch?

Debbie Flower:

[23:52] You’ve see on my landscape! It's buried in mulch. I use mulch regularly. I get the arborist chips and I get the pile in my yard. And it takes me a long time to spread them. But I don't mind. I have a place where I'm fine with them staying in a pile till I need them. And things do land in the mulch and start to grow. But they're really, really easy to pull out. Right.

Farmer Fred:

[24:16] You can control weeds the old fashioned way. 

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Farmer Fred

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DAVE WILSON NURSERY

Farmer Fred:

[25:58] Fall is in the air, the perfect season for planting and planning. And if you're planning to buy and grow some fruit trees this fall and winter, you need to check out the home garden page at DaveWilson.com. That's Dave Wilson Nursery, the nation's largest grower of fruit trees for the backyard garden. At DaveWilson.com, you're going to find planting tips, taste test results, fruit variety recommendations, and links to nurseries in your area that carries Dave Wilson fruit trees. Just go to DaveWilson.com, click on the Home Garden tab at the top of the page. There, you're going to be just a click away from their informative YouTube video series. Especially popular in that video lineup is Dave Wilson Nursery's Tom Spellman explaining Backyard Fruit Tree Basics. Viewers have raved about that episode, calling it absolutely the best single video for growing backyard fruit trees. Check it out before you plant. The Backyard Fruit Tree Basics video. It's on YouTube. Find a link to it after going to the Home Garden tab at DaveWilson.com. Click on the Getting Started link and you're on your way to your best fruit garden ever. Your harvest to better health begins at DaveWilson.com. 

WEED KILLERS JUST GOT MORE CONFUSING, pt. 2

Farmer Fred

Let's get back to our conversation with Debbie Flower, and we're talking now about natural weed killers. But are they safe?

Now, if you go on the Internet and start looking for what they might refer to as natural weed controls, and natural is kind of a nebulous word that nobody knows really what it means. And we discovered this going over to the cleaning aisle today at the big box store is the fact that, well, yeah, you can read on the Internet about using vinegar to kill weeds. But there are some formulations there in the cleaning aisle of vinegar that's downright dangerous. In fact, the word danger is on the label of these bottles of 30% vinegar.

Debbie Flower:

[27:56] Yeah, this frightens me. I think this is incredibly dangerous. They talk about how it can be harmful to your hands, your skin, your eyes. Don't breathe the fumes. Have windows open. And then they show pictures, not on the bottle as much as on the cardboard box holding the bottles in the display of people applying, spraying the vinegar on something and have no gloves on. That's dangerous. It's an acid. It's a very strong acid, and it will burn your skin instantly.

Farmer Fred:

[28:28] The display we saw of 30% vinegar bottles, and they're in one-gallon bottles, was its own display sitting basically in the middle of the aisle. So, you know, they want to sell it. And naturally, they have the open, not the open, open bottles, but at least the display bottles out there and the cardboard container that they came in were underneath it with replacements. And on the side of that cardboard box, it was written “for horticultural uses”. Well, wait a minute. Have you read the label of 30% vinegar? I mean, that word “danger” is going to pop out at you. But does it say anywhere in there in uses about putting it on plants? No.

Debbie Flower:

[29:08] In order for it to be legally used on horticultural crops, it has to be registered as a pesticide. And that's a long, expensive process. It has to be done at the federal level through the Environmental Protection Agency. And once it is accepted and it takes research to show that it does what the company says the herbicide will do, there have to be a certain amount of research that shows that it does that. It has to be tested, like I said, on rats to see what the LD50 is. Sometimes it's done in the eyes of bunny rabbits or other things. But by doing those tests, they can tell what the reaction is going to be on a human. And that's been done for you when it's registered as an herbicide or a pesticide. And it will have an EPA registration number. This vinegar does not have an EPA registration number. Nobody has tested it to see what it really will or won't do. And once it's registered at the federal level, each state goes and decides if they want to allow it to be used for the horticultural applications that the company has said it is good for. So it goes through another set of testing. It's a many, many year process. It's accountability that these chemicals do what they say when used according to label directions. Vinegar is a chemical. It is chemical control if you are using it in your garden. There's no way around that.

Farmer Fred:

[30:31] And if you bother to read the label of that cleaning 30% vinegar, it'll warn you away. It says it “causes eye damage and skin burns. Vapor or mist may irritate eyes and skin, may be harmful if swallowed. Avoid contact with eyes, skin, mucous membranes, and clothing. Put on rubber gloves and protective eyewear. If in eyes, get medical attention immediately. If swallowed, call a poison control center or a doctor immediately.” So basically, if you're applying 30% vinegar, you better have a hazmat suit.

Debbie Flower:

[31:04] Yeah. And if you're the person around someone who's applying it, just listen for the screaming. Because if it touches their skin, if it gets in their eyes, if it gets up their nose, they're going to be screaming. It's going to be very painful.

Farmer Fred:

[31:16] Unfortunately, from a bureaucratic standpoint, it is unfortunate that vinegar is labeled as an organic pesticide. It's suitable for organic uses. The problem is it's not the best choice to make because it is so dangerous to the person applying it and because of its volatility.

Debbie Flower:

[31:36] If it's labeled as a pesticide, it will have a pesticide registration number. It will have a label. And then you can also look up something called the MSDS on any pesticide. It’s the material safety data sheet, MSDS. And it goes on for several pages. It tells you what the LD50 is. It tells you what the signal word is. It tells you how what you need to wear to apply it, how it breaks down and the chemicals it becomes when it breaks down in the environment, what happens when it goes in water. If it's explosive, if it catches fire, it has all this additional information about these pesticides. And so if you're really concerned about exposing yourself, get your MSDS and see what you're exposing yourself to.

Farmer Fred:

[32:22] This particular MSDS for this 30% vinegar says besides you and your skin, vinegar can also damage desirable plants, cause etchings or discoloration in metal or wood, spotting on concrete and damage to your clothes. And the vapors, according to the MSDS, can cause irritation to the upper respiratory tract and mucous membranes. So I'm not kidding about wearing a hazmat suit.

Debbie Flower:

[32:47] Right. A Respirator would be useful if not required. Certainly useful.

Farmer Fred:

[32:53] Does it have the word “danger” on it? Yes. If you look at that bottle in the cleaning aisle, there's the bottle and it says “danger” right there in big print. And on the front of the label, it says “poison”. So it's like, well, do you really want to clean with it? I wouldn't want to be in a shower stall trying to clean out a shower stall with vinegar, 30% vinegar.

Debbie Flower:

[33:13] I wouldn't either. I absolutely wouldn't. 

Farmer Fred:

[33:16] And even though you would be watering it down to whatever the recommended concentration is, it would still be behoove you to wear facial protection.

Debbie Flower:

[33:25] Yes, absolutely.

Farmer Fred:

[33:26] And we have more on 30% vinegar in the September 3 edition of the Beyond the Garden Basics newsletter where you can actually download that MSDS, that material safety data sheet on 30% vinegar to find out more. So even though vinegar might be organic or natural, oh, by the way, it doesn't do a very good job killing weeds. It's just top kill, isn't it?

Debbie Flower:

[33:50] Yes, it is. It is not a systemic. It just kills the top of the plant and doesn't get into the roots. And so if it's a perennial plant, then it'll be back.

Farmer Fred:

[34:00] Yeah, so it's temporary at best. Yeah. You might be better off using a flame weeder.

Debbie Flower:

[34:05] Or boiling water.

Farmer Fred:

[34:06] There you go. Boiling water. Then you only have the chance of scalding yourself.

Debbie Flower:

[34:11] Isn't that the truth? And with the flame weeder, you can catch on fire. There's no win here.

Farmer Fred:

[34:16] Well, there's the hoe.

Debbie Flower:

[34:17] There's the hoe. Yes. Yes. Just lay it down correctly on the ground with the blade turned down so that you don't step on it and have the handle come up and hit you in the head.

Farmer Fred:

[34:27] And as long as these chemical products are legal for sale, which I find amazing, but as long as they're legal for sale, you know, I can't tell you not to use it, really. But I can tell you there's a lot of good things you need to do before you use it. And at the top of the list, read and follow all label directions. Remember, if you forget to put on that face mask or whatever, protect your skin or whatever, the label is the law and your case won't hold up in court.

Debbie Flower:

[34:57] That's absolutely true.

Farmer Fred:

[34:59] Now, remember, most of the information, most of the labels we've been talking about are online, and that's a lot easier way of reading the full instructions without attempting to peel back pages of plastic that are going to tear or getting out a strong magnifying glass to read it. You can go online, and you can also go online to find a lot more information.

Debbie Flower:

[35:20] Yes, there are many places you can find something about how to read a pesticide label. I would Google that, how to read a pesticide label, and I'd put .edu so that you're going to get from schools, from educational institutions, how to read the pesticide label. And again, the label's the law, and it has to be written in a way the law says. So this would be a very helpful thing to have when you're reading labels so you know what everything means on that label.

Farmer Fred:

[35:50] Ain't life grand in the 21st century? Things are changing. Read and follow all label directions. but enjoy gardening.

Debbie Flower:

[35:57] Yes. Yes. Be safe. That's really important. And keep your plants safe. Enjoy what you do!

Farmer Fred:

[36:05] Garden Basics with Farmer Fred comes out every Friday. It's brought to you by SmartPots and Dave Wilson Nursery. Garden Basics, it's available wherever podcasts are handed out. For more information about the podcast, as well as an accurate transcript, visit our website, GardenBasics.net. And there you can find out about our newsletter, Beyond the Garden Basics. And thank you so much for listening and your support.