376 Heal-All Herb Growing. Hackberry Aphids. Leaf Mulching Winter Garden Beds.

Episode 376 of the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred podcast offers more sustainable gardening tips for all gardeners. We cover managing hackberry aphids using less toxic methods with Debbie Flower; growing tips and benefits of the herb, self-heal with Master Gardener and herb specialist Ruth Ostroff; and advice from Organic Consultant Steve Zien, using fallen leaves for winter soil nourishment.

Previous episodes, show notes, links, product information, and transcripts at the home site for Garden Basics with Farmer Fred, GardenBasics.net. Transcripts and episode chapters also available at Buzzsprout..Now on YouTube (audio) 

Pictured: The Herb, Heal-All (Prunella Vulgaris) (Photo: Wikimedia Commons)

Links:

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Smart Pots https://smartpots.com/fred/
Dave Wilson Nursery https://www.davewilson.com/home-garden/

Fair Oaks Horticulture Center
More Information about the Herb, Heal-All (Prunella)

Plants to Attract Beneficial Insects (Episode 41 of this podcast)

Plants to Attract Beneficial Insects, part 1 (Beyond the Garden Basics Newsletter)

Plants to Attract Beneficial Insects, part 2 (Beyond the Garden Basics Newsletter)

All About Farmer Fred:
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Chapters

• 1:46 Q&A Controlling Hackberry Aphids
• 12:06 Smart Pots!
• 14:18 The Herb, Heal-All (Prunella)
• 21:32 Dave Wilson Nursery
• 22:46 Leaves for Winter Mulch

Transcript

376 TRANSCRIPT Hackberry Tree Aphids, Herb - Heal All, Mulching Winter Garden Beds with Leaves

Farmer Fred:

Garden Basics with Farmer Fred is brought to you by SmartPots, the original, lightweight, long-lasting fabric plant container. It's made in the USA. Visit SmartPots.com slash Fred for more information and a special discount. That's SmartPots.com slash Fred. 

Farmer Fred

Welcome to the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred podcast. If you're just a beginning gardener or you want good gardening information, well, you've come to the right spot. 
Today, we're talking about three garden topics of interest to just about any gardener here in North America, Or for that matter, Anywhere in the world. First up, it's Debbie Flower. She has control techniques for a very common garden pest, aphids. But specifically, she has tips for controlling hackberry tree aphids. Then we talk with master gardener and herb specialist Ruth Ostroff, about an herb grown throughout the world. It's not only known for its medicinal properties, but is also great for attracting pollinators, and it's tasty in a salad or as a tea. It's Prunella, more commonly known as self-heal or heal-all. Finally, organic advocate Steve Zien wants you to feed your garden soil this winter with leaves.

 Well, how do you do that?  It's pretty simple, and it's great for your soil. It's all in today's episode number 376, Controlling Hackberry Aphids, Growing the Herb Heal-All, and Using Leaves on Your Winter Garden Beds. We're podcasting from Barking Dog Studios here in the beautiful Abutalon jungle in suburban purgatory. It's the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred Podcast, brought to you today by SmartPots and Dave Wilson Nursery. Let's go.

CONTROLLING HACKBERRY TREE APHIDS

Farmer Fred

We answer your garden questions here on the Garden Basics podcast. Debbie Flower, America's favorite retired college horticultural professor, is with us. And Debbie, let's talk about hackberry aphids.

These, by the name alone, you could tell are aphids that you find on hackberry trees.

Debbie Flower

Very perceptive.

Farner Fred

Thank you.

 And we get a question from Gillian about hackberry aphids. She says, “A few years ago, my two hackberry trees were attacked by the hackberry aphid. While I tolerate most aphids, these ones made so much sugar.” 

It's interesting when excrement is referred to as sugar. But yes. 

“That sugar covered all my shrubs and flowers with sticky stuff that turned into black mold and killed the flowers. In desperation, I sprayed imidacloprid on the ground around the trees just before bud break. I did it late in the evening when the bees had gone to bed. This cured the problem. However, if they ban this nasty chemical, what can I do about the hackberry aphid?” 

This goes back to us saying “read and follow all label directions”. Gillian, it sounds like you used the imidacloprid. Which is a systemic, Debbie will explain that in a minute, that can be soaked up in the ground by the roots and then translocated to all points of the plant, where at which point it will start killing off the hackberry aphids. But the problem is just because the bees are sleeping at night doesn't mean that they're not awake the next day. And also, I think it's more important if you're doing a drench like that to make sure that the plant isn't in flower mode or about to be in flower mode within two weeks.

Debbie Flower

You said systemic. The imidacloprid is a systemic, meaning, as you said, it is absorbed by a plant part. It can be the roots. In the case of imidacloprid, it can be other parts of the plant. And then it moves throughout the whole plant. So that includes the flowers. It can get into the flowers and it would be in the sap of the plant. That's how it's moving around, pollinators get a reward from the plant so that they will do their work. It's a mutually beneficial system. In many cases, the reward is some sap because that's sugar and it's great for the diet. If the sap has imidacloprid in it, then you've just dosed the pollinator, which might be a bee in this case, with the imidacloprid. And that has happened a lot in the US and it has caused a lot of problems for, we know, for those who keep European honeybees. And we're not as well versed on the native bees, which are a huge population that we aren't well informed about. But we've probably killed a whole lot of them too.

 That's why we don't want to use it. The hackberry aphid, it is an aphid. Aphids, females are born pregnant. And so they start having babies right away. And they're all girls unless they have mated. The a mother has made it and then there will be girls and boys and they will populate a plant until it's so full that the next generation born will have wings. It's an amazing thing that they can detect all this and they'll fly to someplace else and start feeding on that. The hackberry aphid is really only gets into hackberries, anything in the genus of celtus. So it would have to be another or celtus. But aphids, as Gillian said, produce what we call honeydew. It's excess sap. They puncture the plant and they get into the sap carrying parts of the plant and that sap goes through their body and they actually have a way. It's so much their body, little bodies can't process it. And so some of it just goes right out the other end. And that's why it's called honeydew. It's just basically sap that went through the Digestive system of the insect, but wasn't processed in any way. And you see it on your windshield and you see it on the road and the sidewalk and all kinds of other plants. So spraying the plant with water will help get rid of that honeydew. It just dissolves in water. And if you spray hard enough, you can knock off a bunch of the aphids. You can use insecticidal soap And especially during the dormant season, do a dormant spray on that plant using, well, horticultural oils for that, for the dormant spray. And make sure you drench all of the wood, the trunks, because the aphid overwinters in little cracks and crevices that it finds in the plant. Insecticidal soap on contact with the aphid will smother it and kill it. But two other things. One is watch for ants. If there are ants climbing up and down the trunk of the tree, they are probably tending the aphids because they like that honeydew. They want to collect it for themselves and their family. And so they are protecting the aphids from natural predators. So bait for the ants. If you see the ants. Bait for them. Since they're going after honeydew, the bait should be sweet. And there are many readily available forms, pre-packaged ant bait that you can put out around the base of the plant. And then you can also make your own. It's a little trickier for outdoor use to make your own. The other is keep the tree pruned so that it's open. The saying used to be so that a bluebird could fly through it without touching anything. That's quite open. There are insects that will take care of the aphids, get rid of the aphids, and some birds that will also feed on aphids, but they have to be able to get to them. And if the plant is very dense, the branches are crossing and the leaves are creating places where the sun won't get to, the wind won't get to, the beneficials aren't going to get to it either. So you want to be able to get light and air all through the canopy of the tree. So you're going to prune with that in mind. And that, I had hackberry aphids once and that, I did that alone. I didn't do any sprays. I just pruned the tree and the problem got taken care of by the natural predators.

Debbie Flower:

What Gillian used here was called a drench. So instead of trying to cover a 50 foot tree with a spray of some sort, what she did was probably on the label talking about applying a drench. But the drench is not a spray. It's basically you mix it in a bucket and spread it around the root zone of the tree at a certain distance from the trunk. 

Farmer Fred:

And those instructions would be on the label.

Debbie Flower:

A label that you won't be able to read much anymore if you live in California, because you won't have access to imidacloprid starting January 1st, 2025. Only licensed pest control dealers will be able to handle neonicotinoid pesticides. And only certified pesticide applicators will be able to possess and use neonicotinoid pesticides. Retail nurseries and garden centers will be prohibited with the sale of neonics. 

Farmer Fred

So you're not going to find them after much longer.

Debbie Flower

Right. And California is not alone in that. Other states in the U.S., including New Jersey and Maine have already prohibited the sale of neonicotinoid pesticides to homeowners or without a license, I should say, to people who do not have a pest applicator's license. And the European Union has banned them and so has Canada. And I don't know the specifics of their laws.

Farmer Fred

For those of you that still have neonicotinoid  in the form of imidacloprid hanging around the house and you think, OK, how about injections? 

Debbie Flower

The label talks about using injections. University of California now advises to avoid injecting or implanting pesticides or other materials into the trunks or roots of hackberry trees because Chinese hackberries are susceptible to an unexplained tree killing malady. The cause might be a vascular wilt pathogen mechanically spread by unsterilized tools that contact internal parts of multiple hackberry trees, such as tools used to prune trees or inject them with chemicals. Kind of like humans sharing needles and getting sick from that.

Farmer Fred

Yeah, just like that. Well, and if you're going to take it to a lower level than that, if you have a mow and blow service that's cutting your lawn for you, Are they cleaning Their mower off  Before they set foot on your property? Right. Otherwise, you could have all sorts of interesting seeds germinating, popping up like Bermuda grass.

Debbie Flower

 I hired a lawn aerator once.

Farmer Fred

 Oh, it didn't come clean.

Debbie Flower

 No, I got nutsedge. Never had it before. Got nutsedge in my yard after that.

Farmer Fred:

Yep. Yep. If you are in the habit of renting equipment to work on your yard, make sure it's clean before you apply it to your own yard. Even if that means you have to clean it yourself before you use it. With neonicanoids disappearing from several states, you can either hire a professional pesticide applicator to do the work for you. Or, again, what you talked about, pruning the tree using water, using horticultural oil.

Debbie Flower

And controlling ants.  And you can control ants probably from the ground. But again, just like when we were talking about controlling rats, you don't want them, The ants, to Be able to use the branches on the tree to get to the next tree or to get to a fence or to get anywhere.

Farmer Fred

Right. So, pruning?

Debbie Flower

Yes, prune the plant away from those things.

Farmer Fred

 So, Gillian, we hope we helped you out here in controlling the hackberry aphid. Yeah, I've had hackberry trees and I've had hackberry aphids, but like you saw, Debbie, they seem to be a pest one time, two times, and then

Debbie Flower

They- And they're more of a problem for us than the tree, really.

Farmer Fred

 And like you say, there's a lot of beneficial insects that enjoy the baby hackberry aphids as well. And so having the Good Bug Hotel in your yard of desirable plants for those predators is really a great idea.

Debbie Flower

 Yes, absolutely.

Farmer Fred

 And we have episodes of talking about the Good Bug Hotel and how to attract beneficial insects in the vast library of the Garden Basics podcast. So check that out (in the show notes).

Farmer Fred:

 Debbie Flower, thanks so much.

Debbie Flower

 You're welcome, Fred.

SMART POTS!

Farmer Fred:

I've been using the SmartPot Compost Sak for a few years now, And it is coming in very handy for amending and protecting the garden soil year-round. I like to amend my planting beds before putting in any of the seasonal crops or improving the bed before I plant any time. One of the ingredients that gets worked into the soil in my raised beds is compost. And making up the bottom half of my SmartPot Compost Sak right now is some of the richest-looking, finest compost I've ever seen made from last fall's oak leaf collection. Yep, it's beautiful leaf mold. The design of the compost sack, with a little help from Mother Nature, turned those shredded leaves into beautiful, ready-to-use compost. And I used some of the existing leaves that haven't broken down near the top of the compost sack as a few inches of mulch, and I used that year-round. The SmartPot Compost Sak is a large 100-gallon fabric bag. It's lightweight, yet extremely durable, and lasts for years. It can hold 12 cubic feet of pure compost. This rugged fabric is entirely porous, containing many micropores that allow for air circulation and drainage. The fitted cover is a flexible plastic top designed to increase heat and help manage moisture in the mix, accelerating the composting process.

 SmartPots, they're proudly made 100% here in the USA. SmartPots are available at independent garden centers and select ACE and true value hardware stores nationwide. You can find the nearest location of SmartPots at their website, smartpots.com slash fred. That's where you can get 10% off your SmartPot order by using the coupon code FRED, F-R-E-D. Do it at checkout from the SmartPot store. Visit SmartPots.com slash Fred for more information about the complete line of SmartPots lightweight, colorful, award-winning fabric containers, as well as the SmartPot compost sack. SmartPots, the original award-winning fabric container. Go to SmartPots.com slash Fred.

HEAL-ALL. AN HERB WITH MANY USES

Farmer Fred

 In case you didn't see the news, The Herb Society of America recently announced the selection for the notable native herb of 2025. And it is an herb that grows in all 50 states. It's commonly known as self-heal or heal-all.  It's a low-growing perennial plant. The proper botanical name is Prunella vulgaris. And we are talking to a Master Gardener here At the Fair Oaks Horticulture Center. It's Ruth Ostroff, who works here in the herb section. And they just planted this. It's amazing how common this is. It's found in all 50 states, Ruth.

Ruth Ostroff:

 It is. It's actually found all over the globe. We're very lucky here in the United States to have it. It's absolutely, I think, a really incredible plant. It's very low-growing and not obnoxious. I mean, it's great in a garden. It spreads by small rhizomes, but it's easy to keep contained. You can grow it in a pot. You can find it along roadsides and damp areas in the shade. It's a good shade plant if you have a need for that. I really like it because it's a good pollinator plant also. It has beautiful flowers. The plant is in the mint family, Lamiaceae. So it has square stems and it has those really cute little lipped flowers that come in white or pink or kind of a low, you know, pastel colors. It can grow in sun to shade. So it's not specifically a shady plant. It's pretty drought tolerant, although it is in some places known as a wetland plant. But in our area, I grow it in my garden and it's not in an overly wet area.

Farmer Fred:

 When you said it's in the mint family, red flags went off in my head because I know a lot of mint species that are rather aggressive and you grow them in a pot. And you mentioned this spreads by rhizomes, and I imagine if it flowers, it also might propagate from seed as well.

Ruth Ostroff:

 That's correct. And it does spread by rhizomes, but it's not as aggressive as your common peppermint or spearmint.

Farmer Fred

Although, you know, if you are really worried and you're really limited on space, you might want to put it in a pot.

Ruth Ostroff:

 I haven't found that it's taking over anything in my garden.

Farmer Fred:

 Describe its growth habits. How tall does it get? How tall is the flower over the plant itself?

Ruth Ostroff:

Everything is pretty low. I would say a foot-ish, maybe up to 15 inches. But generally speaking, a foot or less. The flowers are kind of short. So, you know, if you're walking by it, you might miss it out in the wild, except you You might see a bunch of pollinators fluttering around it.

Farmer Fred:

 All right. So it does flower and the flower colors come. I think you mentioned like purple and pink and white.

Ruth Ostroff:

 Whites, pinks, that kind of thing. Yeah, purples, light purples.

Farmer Fred:

 And when does it bloom?

Ruth Ostroff:

 It blooms spring through summer. Although right now, the plant that we just planted here at the Horticulture Center has little tiny baby flowers on it.

Farmer Fred:

It looks like where it's planted will be in full sun. Are you taking a chance with that here?

Ruth Ostroff:

 Maybe. Maybe. It is pretty sunny in this box, in this spot. So if it does turn out that it's not a good spot, we'll move it.

Farmer Fred:

 Because I would imagine in areas that get hot summers, like, oh, this place, you might want to put it in a place where it gets afternoon shade, but time will tell. Yeah, give it a chance here and see what happens.

Ruth Ostroff:

 The good news for it is that it's planted next to some very nice lavenders and some rosemary that will grow pretty good size, and they'll give some shade to this area right around where it is. Although, you know, you do have a point. We have limited space here at the Herb Garden, and we also have our areas themed. Boxes are themed, and this particular box is a Mediterranean box, although this plant could go in just about any box. It's from all over the globe.

Farmer Fred:

 And people may have seen it, not realizing they have seen it, because as you mentioned earlier, it can grow on roadsides, it can grow in wild places, along trails, just abandoned patches of land, and it's found in all 50 states. Let's talk about the common name, heal-all or self-heal, which would indicate it must have some medicinal properties.

Ruth Ostroff:

 It does. It's noted for medicinal and culinary. I find it very interesting that when I'm reading about it, the first thing that comes up is culinary. It's kind of like a pot herb, they call them. You know, you trim them like a spinach or something, some kind of a wild green, and you can cook them or you can eat them raw. And that would be the whole top parts. They call them the aerial parts, the parts in the air. of the plant. Medicinally, it does have a lot of functions medicinally that are listed on the web. And if people are interested in that, they can look that up.

Farmer Fred:

 What are the edible portions of it?

Ruth Ostroff:

 Mostly leaves, but you can eat the stems and nothing's poisonous.

Farmer Fred:

 Can you eat it raw?

Ruth Ostroff:

Yeah, if you like that kind of taste, I would taste it. And if you don't like it, you could cook it or you could just make a tea out of it. It makes a nice, you can mix a nice tea. It is in the mint family.

Farmer Fred:

 Since this is found everywhere, the Prunella vulgaris, and by the way, Vulgaris is a Latin word meaning common. So that's why you find it in all 50 states. There's Prunella vulgaris and then there's a variety of Prunus vulgaris called Lanceolata, which would indicate to me the leaves have some interest to them.

Ruth Ostroff:

 There are other types of prunella. I actually had another one in my garden that had, I think it was called a cutleaf prunella. And it was actually quite lovely, but I planted it in the wrong spot. Although it was in the shade, it got overgrown by some other plants. And I looked for it this morning and couldn't find it. Yes, there are other types. That is just the more common vulgaris one that we've planted here at the Hort Center. I'd like to tell you that if you're interested in a low-growing little ground cover mat that takes a little bit of extra water, not a lot of care. Once it's established, it's fairly drought tolerant. You might want to consider planting this in an area and just letting it go.

Farmer Fred:

It can't take much foot traffic, I would think.

Ruth Ostroff:

 I wouldn't give it foot traffic. I don't give my plants foot traffic. It compresses the ground. 

Farmer Fred

You have dogs? They're not happy. 

Ruth Ostroff

I have a cat that doesn't like to come outside. I don't have a problem. But I do have a lot of turkeys, wild chickens, skunks, and I'm out in the country, so I have things walking on my plants.

Farmer Fred:

You know who's eating my herbs right now?

Ruth Ostroff:

You.

Farmer Fred:

No, well, yeah, me. But also Peacocks.

Ruth Ostroff:

Peacocks, yes, I have peacocks too. Yeah, we have a lot of interesting things out in the yard. They keep the bugs down. They also dig up all the wood chips and mulch.

Farmer Fred:

It's Prunella vulgaris, also called self-heal, and it's common in all 50 states. You can probably find it at...

Ruth Ostroff:

 Online or at selected nurseries.

Farmer Fred:

Easy to grow, an herb with many uses. You may want to be looking for it at your local nursery or online. Prunella vulgaris, self-heal, the Herb Society of America's notable native herb for 2025. Self Heal.

Farmer Fred:

 Ruth, thanks for all the good information.

Ruth Ostroff:

Thank you for asking about it. It's a great plant.

DAVE WILSON NURSERY

Farmer Fred:

Now's the time to plan the what and the where of what you want to plant for the future. And to help you along, it pays to visit your favorite independently owned nursery on a regular basis throughout the fall and winter just to see what's new. And coming soon to that nursery near you is Dave Wilson Nursery's excellent lineup of farmer's market favorites. great-tasting, healthy fruit and nut varieties. They'll already be potted up and ready to be planted. And we're also talking about a great selection of antioxidant-rich fruits, such as blueberries, blackberries, raspberries, goji berries, grapes, kiwi, mulberries, gooseberries, figs, and pomegranates. Wholesale grower Dave Wilson Nursery has probably the best lineup of great-tasting fruit and nut trees of any grower in the United States. Find out more at their website, DaveWilson.com. And while you're there, check out all the videos they have on how to plant and grow all their delicious varieties of fruit and nut trees. Plus, at DaveWilson.com, you can find the nursery nearest you that carries Dave Wilson's plants. Your harvest to better health begins at DaveWilson.com.

MULCH YOUR GARDEN IN WINTER WITH LEAVES

(originally aired in Episode 234, October 2022)

Farmer Fred:

Maybe you don't want to put in cool season crops. Maybe you don't want to deal with plants that might be killed by a frost or a freeze. But don't leave your summer garden intact in its place. There are some cheap and easy things you can do that will not only minimize pest problems for the following years, but also during the winter, feed your soil and make it even better for next year.

Farmer Fred:

We're talking with Steve Zien. He is Sacramento's organic advocate, an organic gardener for decades. He ran his own organic gardening and consulting company for decades, Living Resources. And Steve, I know we've talked about cover crops before, but going beyond cover crops, if people want an easy way to feed their soil during the winter, maybe they don't want to grow cool season crops. I think one of the easiest things to do, well, two things to do is, A) cut down everything to soil level. If you're growing tomatoes and peppers, just cut them off at the soil level, but leave the roots in the soil. Exactly. And then B), cover that soil with leaves that are falling from the trees in the fall. Grind them up with your mower or a weed whacker or something and just put down six, eight, 12 inches of leaves on top of that garden bed. And now it's your turn to tell us about the benefits of doing that.

Steve Zien:

 Yeah, it's absolutely wonderful. It regulates the soil temperature. The soil temperature will be warmer. The fact that it's all ground up makes it easier for the biology that's in the soil to come up into that mulch and munch it down. And then the rains will help leach those small little particles down.

Steve Zien:

The worms that are in your soil will come up and feed on that every single day. And if it's a thick mulch, even at night, because it'll be dark, they will be aerating your soil and taking that organic material down into the soil. And the nutrients that leach through by the rains will also leach the biology because that'll start composting on the top of the soil. And the biology that's composting will increase in numbers and will end up moving down into the soil as well. So you will get nutrients moved down into the soil and increase the nutrient value, and you will get more soil biology. And the more soil biology you have, the more diversity and the more numbers, the healthier your soil is and the healthier your crops will be. I just took a class recently. Recently, everybody's been talking about rotating your crops for decades to reduce pest problems. And they're saying that if you have the right biology and you put down, you know, you either grow cover crops or you put down a thick mulch, you really will have the biology in there, the beneficial soil biology involved, To naturally combat the pest problems, And you should not have to rotate your crops.

Farmer Fred:

I love it when you're a contrarian. That's great. And it makes perfect sense, too.

Steve Zien:

Yeah. If you've got the good soil biology down there, and then you're feeding it with either a cover crop or with a thick mulch, you're feeding, though, that good biology. The good biology will fight it out basically with a bad biology and not allowing them to grow in substantial numbers where it's due harm to your plants the following season.

Farmer Fred:

 Now, I mentioned earlier about clipping off the tops of the plants and leaving the roots in place. True or false?

Steve Zien:

True, because they will decompose and typically will decompose pretty fastly. Again, if you have an organic, happy, healthy soil. If you've been using pesticides, you've been using synthetic fertilizers, the biology isn't going to be there to break that stuff down. But if you're growing organically, you'll have a lot of biology in your soil. Most of those roots will break down very, very quickly, and they will create air channels. They will end up aerating your soil because where the root was is there's nothing there anymore. And so you've got these big pore spaces. So when you irrigate next spring, the water is going to move in through the soil. The worms can move through the soil better. The soil biology can, you know, all of the various microbes and mites and beneficial mites and protozoa and all those guys can move through the soil and do their job better.

Farmer Fred:

 And you're also improving water percolation for the years ahead by keeping those roots in.

Steve Zien:

 Exactly, because they will, you know, they'll decompose. The biology will basically reduce them to nothing. And there will be large pore spaces where those roots were. And so when you irrigate, the water will go down very, very nicely, which is important if you've got a clay soil. And at least here in the Sacramento region, most gardeners have a clay soil.

Farmer Fred:

I think across the country, there are a lot of gardeners who are dealing with clay soil.

Steve Zien:

 Yes.

Farmer Fred:

 You mentioned a very unusual word here. I'm not sure what it is. You were talking about to help that mulch layer on top break down, that “rain” could do that. What is this thing called “rain” that you're talking about?

Steve Zien:

 I don't know. It's been a long time. 

Farmer Fred:

 Yeah. Now, that brings up a question. If it doesn't, if it, man, I hope it rains. But if it doesn't rain here in California and in many areas of the West, if you don't get the rain, should you irrigate the top of that mulch like once a week? Just turn on a hose and start sprinkling it?

Steve Zien:

 I think it would be a good idea once in a while. Certainly once a week is not necessary. Typically,  if you do it once in the wintertime, it's not very hot, that might be enough. In many cases, it will hopefully be cloudy before you irrigate. I would probably irrigate it or make sure that mulch Is moist, not wet, but moist when you put it down or after you put it down. And then before you add more moisture, don't just look at the surface.  Dig down an inch or two and see if it's dry. And if it's dry, then you might want to add more water.

Farmer Fred:

 Yeah, it's a good point. And to reinforce something we said earlier is the smaller the pieces of those leaves that you're using as mulch, the better, the quicker it can break down and feed the soil. And plus, If you were just stacking 12 inches of unchopped leaves on top of your garden bed, you might create an anaerobic environment.

Steve Zien:

 It can. It would help to grind it up some way. And, you know, a lawnmower works well, and you mentioned that. Another easy way to do it if you've got a string trimmer is get like a five-gallon or get a garbage can and put, you know, a small amount of the mulch in the garbage can and then run your weed eater down in there and it'll chop it up pretty nicely as well. It's an alternative way to do it.

Farmer Fred:

And to save wear and tear on that garbage can, make sure it's a metal garbage can,

Steve Zien

Which are still available.

Farmer Fred:

They're out there. usually a 27 or a 32 gallon metal garbage can and then put those whole leaves like like you said maybe fill up that can one third and then put your string trimmer in it turn it on whiz it around a while and you'd be surprised at how it drops and then you can pile more in there and then chop it up again and just do it in increments like that yeah

Steve Zien:

 And make sure you have a string trimmer I know some string trimmers, you can put, like, metal blades on them.

Farmer Fred:

No.

Steve Zien:

 Yeah. That's going to pretty much destroy your container.

Farmer Fred:

 Yeah. And wear eye protection any time you do that.

Steve Zien:

 Yes, always. Yeah.

Farmer Fred:

 And use the string trimmer, not even the plastic blades, but just the string trimmer is best.

Steve Zien:

 Yes.

Farmer Fred:

 If you're not going to be planting cool season crops this year, then the least you can do for your soil is cover it with mulch. Chopped up leaves is great.  Just leave it on till spring. And you don't even have to remove it in spring. You can just move it aside and plant whatever you're going to put in come springtime and keep that as a permanent mulching area. Just make room for your plants.

Steve Zien:

 Exactly.

Farmer Fred:

 Mr. Exactly's with us. Steve Zien, Sacramento's organic advocate, Living Resources Company. Steve, thanks for the good, cool season advice.

Steve Zien:

 It’s Been a pleasure as always, Fred.

Farmer Fred:

Garden Basics with Farmer Fred comes out every Friday. it's brought to you by Smart Pots and Dave Wilson Nursery. Garden Basics. it's available wherever podcasts are handed out. For more information about the podcast as well as an accurate transcript, visit our website gardenbasics.net . And thank you so much for listening, and your support.