Garden Basics with Farmer Fred

020 The No-Till, No-Dig Garden. Excess harvest donation tips. Reading pesticide labels.

• Fred Hoffman • Season 1 • Episode 20

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We want to make gardening easier for you. Garden author (and contrarian) Robert Kourik explains the benefits to your soil and plants if you not only don’t rototill the soil, but also limit your digging. “No-dig” your way to your best garden ever!

This episode is brought to you by Smart Pots. Visit smartpots.com/fred for a money-saving offer on the original, award-winning fabric planter, made in the USA. Listen to learn how to win a free, Smart Pots 6-foot long bed!  (By the way, if the podcast service you listen to doesn't have a ratings/comment section, you can send your ratings/comment here to enter this contest.)

Garden pesticides can be very confusing, especially when several different formulations have the same brand name. Our in-house college professor, Debbie Flower, talks about the importance of reading and following label directions, now, more than ever.

Soon, if not already, you will be harvesting more from your garden than you know what to do with it all. How about feeding the hungry with all those extra tomatoes, zucchini, peppers and peaches? We talk with the founder of AmpleHarvest.org, which is connecting overwhelmed gardeners with local food pantries who want your fresh fruits and vegetables.

It’s all part of Episode 20 of Garden Basics with Farmer Fred. Put down your shovel, gather a few cherry tomatoes to munch on, and give us a listen. We will do it all in under 30 minutes. Let’s go.

More episodes and info available at Garden Basics with Farmer Fredhttps://www.buzzsprout.com/1004629.

Garden Basics comes out every Tuesday and Friday. It's available just about anywhere podcasts are handed out. Please subscribe and leave a comment or rating.

Got a garden question? There are several ways to get in touch: call and leave a question, or text us the question: 916-292-8964. E-mail: fred@farmerfred.com or, leave a question at the Facebook, Twitter or Instagram locations below. Be sure to tell us where you are when you leave a question, because all gardening is local.

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Thank you for listening, subscribing and commenting on the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred podcast and the Beyond the Garden Basics Newsletter.

Farmer Fred :

Garden Basics with Farmer Fred is brought to you by smart pots the original lightweight, long lasting fabric plant container it's made in the USA. visit smart pots.com slash Fred for more information and a special discount that smart pots.com slash Fred.

Farmer Fred :

Welcome to the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred podcast. If you're just a beginning gardener or you want good gardening information well you've come to the right spot.

Farmer Fred :

One of our tasks here at the garden basics podcast is to make gardening easier for you and today's guests will explain the benefits to your soil and you, if you not only don't rototill the soil, but also limit your digging. Garden contrarian and author Robert Kourik talks about how to no dig your way to your best garden ever. garden pesticides can be really confusing, especially when several different formulations have the same brand name. our in house college professor Debbie Flower talks about the importance of reading and following label directions now more than ever. Soon, if not already, you're going to be harvesting more from your garden then you know what to do with it all. How about feeding the hungry with all those extra tomatoes, zucchini, peppers and peaches this summer? we talk with the founder of Ampleharvest.org which is connecting overwhelmed gardeners with local food pantries who want your extra fresh fruits and vegetables. It's all part of Episode 20 of Garden Basics with Farmer Fred so put down your shovel gather a few cherry tomatoes if you have them and give us a listen and we're gonna do it all in under 30 minutes. Let's go.

Farmer Fred :

Well, we're talking to the garden contrarian, Robert Kourik, who has a new publication out called, "no digging for a healthier soil and a sustainable garden". Now I don't know about how you garden, but every season I like to work in compost, fertilizer, and worm castings into the soil using double digging, a time honored process that first came to my attention decades ago from john Jeavons of Ecology Action, who wrote the book, "how to grow more vegetables". And of course, we've always talked about digging holes for planting. Well, along comes Robert Kourik, author of several books. we'll get into those as well as about how no digging is better for a healthier soil and a sustainable garden. Well, once again, Robert, you're making waves.

Robert Kourik :

I first wrote about double digging, I mean, no till, in my 1986 book, "edible landscaping naturally". And I've been proposing it to people ever since. but now times have caught up with me and it's getting to be more popular.

Farmer Fred :

Well, again, what's old is new again, because you go back even further than john Jeavons and in researching this by quoting the works of Ruth Stout, author of "How to have a green thumb without an aching back" and one book I'm holding in my hand called "gardening without work". and her basic philosophy was, hey, just pile some straw in the ground,

Robert Kourik :

She is the Grand dame of no till gardening, but if you read her book carefully, she'll tell you in her book that for 12 years, she brought in manure and tilled it in with a tractor. So I think that anybody who has developed their soil for 12 years can probably get away with it without having to double dig. You know, the double Diggings a great way to get going, and I recommend it for people with a strong back early on, but there's no reason to keep doing it. I know one garden, they've been doing it for almost 30 years every year and they don't need to,

Farmer Fred :

and it's a lot of work.

Robert Kourik :

Yep. Well, what Jeavons talks about in double digging the way he does it is you get down to that open trench and you throw the layers forward, you don't invert. And that's the key. The no till is not inverting this natural strata of bacteria and critters like fungi and actiniomycetes and bacteria, algae and all those critters that, like they prefer the top one to four inches. And if you turn them down under, they start dying. But the stuff at the bottom that you brought up for first and more anaerobic conditions, they start combusting. So in both directions, you're having a death of the biological activity.

Farmer Fred :

And it's not only biological activity that you pointed out. In this publication, no digging for a healthier soil and a sustainable garden. You pointed out that top few inches is also where the plant roots want to go. Yep.

Robert Kourik :

And, in fact, for people who in other climates that case, it's so amazing that on a young spruce tree where it rains in the summer 64% of the roots are above the soil in the duff or mulch, as you call it. And if you don't have that, the top foot of trees is over 50% of the root system.

Farmer Fred :

Well now I feel real good about what I did at the end of the summer vegetable season here, which was to basically take out the expired plants and then just throw my neighbor's oak leaves that had fallen on top of the beds and let them sit there.

Robert Kourik :

Great. That's a good way to go. Yeah, they make a great mulch, but they also decompose fairly fast. And then that way you can improve the soil from the top down. I like to say that nature never made soil bending over.

Farmer Fred :

It's a fairly natural process.

Robert Kourik :

It but it takes patience. It does take time. If you have a heavy clay soil, it can take a fair number of years to get the soil up to snuff. That's why I like to propose double digging for one or two years if you can do it or single digging for one to five years, and then you get to no till, but the people would jump right in with no tilling the heavy soil, they have a lot of times of failure.

Farmer Fred :

Well, I guess that's why the process of no digging would work best on raised beds and you go into great detail about that in this publication.

Robert Kourik :

Yeah, yeah, the raised bed is the way I prefer to do vegetables and planting trees on mounds not in planting holes.

Farmer Fred :

And that that brings up something I mentioned at the very beginning is you're now advocating don't don't dig a hole to plant a plant a shrub or a tree. plant right on top?

Robert Kourik :

Well, what you do is you take a spading fork and fracture it so they're not inverting it, but leaning forward and back on a spading fork, so it makes a little fractures and then you take that native soil there in the yard and make a mound six to 12 inches high and spread the roots over and cover it with two to four inches of soil but not burying the base of the trunk and then mulching heavily. And what happens is, the roots will grow out of that area faster because you let the top start to dry out in May or June. And the roots will tend to follow the moisture and it gets them out of the planting area much quicker.

Farmer Fred :

Talk a little bit about this mound. How does it stay together? It seems to me it would fall apart fairly easily.

Robert Kourik :

Oh, well it's a it's a mound that's pretty subtle. In other words, in my book, I made a mistake of making it look like it's a pimple on the landscape. But I do it in reality with a very low six inches high but two, three feet wide. So it's just barely a bump.

Farmer Fred :

Another way you talk about enriching the soil This really is contrarian, in is leave the underground portions of weeds and just use a scraper to take off the top portions.

Robert Kourik :

Yeah, there's a woman in England, who for years had a successful truck farm, doing what she called the elevation where you take what's called an onion hoe and kind of scraped below the surface one to four inches. And that severs the tops of the weeds, their crown, and it allows for you to develop soil without inverting it. And she had a successful farm and on top of that she never used manures

Farmer Fred :

it's called "no digging for a healthier soil and a sustainable garden". You don't mind if I call you a garden contrarian? Do you?

Robert Kourik :

No, that's no problem.

Farmer Fred :

It's Robert Kourik. And for people who want more information about this, where can they go?

Robert Kourik :

They can go to my website, RobertKourik.com. K-O-U-R-I-K or Google "edible landscape naturally" and it gets to my web page.

Farmer Fred :

All right, RobertKourik.com is the website and check out his other books that he has. They're excellent books about. He takes the mystery out of drip irrigation as well as the role that roots play in plants.

Robert Kourik :

Yeah, I really spend a lot of time with roots.

Farmer Fred :

There you go. It's no digging for a healthier soil and a sustainable garden. Robert Kourik is the author. Check it out. Robert, thanks for a few minutes of your time.

Robert Kourik :

It was great. I enjoyed it a lot.

Farmer Fred :

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Farmer Fred :

Here on the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred podcast. We like to answer your questions. I like to bring in the big guns to answer the questions. that would be retired horticultural Professor Debbie Flower college professor for decades. And Debbie, Kat writes in and says they have a rental with a lawn, or at least it used to be a lawn. She says, a couple of years ago I asked about the lawn of one of our rentals where the landscape guys sprayed the lawn and killed it. Now we have new tenants with kids. And the spring growth of weeds was great, but grass won't grow. Even with watering. There is a couple of feet of sod we plopped down it seems to be growing now. Any thoughts, She asks?

Debbie Flower :

Well, one question for Kat would be what roundup did she use what pesticide was used on on her lawn that killed it in the first place? If it was something with the brand name Roundup, it could be many different products, all pesticides, by law, have to have a certain number of things on the label. And the word roundup is a brand name and The brand roundup has many different chemicals, many different useful chemicals that they sell under that brand name. And so when you go to buy that chemical that you have to know what you want it to do and in what situation and then you have to read the label to find out if it's going to do that thing for you in that situation. So the roundup that has been around I think the longest is a chemical that says on the label, it's a weed and grass killer and it kills the roots. But there are other Roundups now and one of them one for instance called roundup max control 365 says on the front of the of the bottle, kills vegetation for up to 12 months. And if you look further down, or sometimes it's on the back, you also find a list of active ingredients. The active ingredient in the roundup that just kills weed and grass is glyphosate. The active ingredient on the roundup max control 365 that kills vegetation for up to 12 months has glyphosate in it, but it also has another chemical called Imazapic. And Imazapic is something we call a pre emergent. So it the glyphosate will kill the weeds that kills the grass and kills the roots. But the Imazapic, which is a second ingredient in the roundup max control 365 is a pre emergent and it prevents things from growing, and that's what kills the vegetation for up to 12 months. It's that additional chemical that's in that bottle. So the word the advice to the wise is to read the label at least read that what's called a statement of general use. Does it just kill weeds and grass, including the roots or does it kill vegetation for up to 12 months, there's a big difference there.

Farmer Fred :

The problem I see is the fact that roundup is in big print on the front of the label and people going down the aisle and seeing a product called roundup says oh, there's some roundup I will get that. Not realizing there are now different formulations of roundup and they've added another one to their arsenal that is basically a broadleaf weed killer for lawns too, to add even more confusion. So this is our roundup is kind of like Kleenex. Yes, Kleenex has become a word, meaning facial tissue, but we use Kleenex instead of saying facial tissue.

Debbie Flower :

And Kleenex is a brand

Farmer Fred :

and Kleenex is a brand exactly just like roundup as a brand. But if you said please pass the Kleenex, somebody could pass you a wet wipe. And you say, what's this? This isn't Kleenex and you would say yes, it is. It's a Kleenex brand wet wipe, right? So yes, read and follow all labeled directions.

Debbie Flower :

On pesticides. It's so important and make that fertilizers too

Farmer Fred :

Let's add a little scenic bypass to this. You use the word pesticides and a lot of people think, Oh, I thought we were talking weeds, not bugs. But the word pesticide is actually a general all encompassing term for something that causes death.

Debbie Flower :

Yes, anything we consider a pest in the garden, something that and a pest is something we don't want there. And so yes, there are insects that we don't want there. There are also insects we do want there. But there are plants we don't want there. Those are weeds. And there are plants that we do want there. In fact, I think there are more chemicals used to control weeds in the garden, than there are chemicals, or use of chemicals to control other problems in the garden. weeds are so common and so frequent. We get rid of them, they come back we get rid of them, they come back that in general we use more chemicals to control weeds in the garden than we do to control other types of pests. So weeds are considered a pest.

Farmer Fred :

And we should point out that when we say the term pesticides that's inclusive of insecticides, herbicides of which roundup is; fungicides, molluscides, did I leave anybody out?

Debbie Flower :

Well pesticide yes includes an herbicide which herb is a plant and 'icide" means killer insect is an insect, an "icide" is a killer insect killer. So a mollusk is a slug or snail. So fungicide kills fungus there's bacteria sides which kill bacteria,

Farmer Fred :

Miticides!

Debbie Flower :

Miticides, right? Miticides are are basically arachnids or spider eight legged things that crawl around in the garden. Yes, there are many, many different types of pest killers and they're all fall under that category of pesticide.

Farmer Fred :

Once again, we've muddled through, And maybe solved somebody's problem. But if anything, I think the bottom line we're trying to get across here is read and follow all label directions.

Debbie Flower :

Yes, very important.

Farmer Fred :

Debbie Flower. Thanks so much for your help.

Debbie Flower :

My pleasure.

Farmer Fred :

We're talking with Gary Oppenheimer. He's with Ampleharvest.org. He's the founder. It's a unique nationwide resource that is eliminating the waste of food, the outcome being a reduction in hunger and malnutrition. Along with an improved environment. There's something like 42 million Americans who grow food in home gardens, community gardens, and there are small farmers as well, who could easily donate their excess harvest to one of over 8600 registered local food pantries spread across all 50 states. And Gary, I want to tell you, first of all about my experience with your website, Ample harvest.org. There is a page there where you can go and find the Food Pantry nearest you and I set a search a 15 mile radius around my house and up popped, I'm counting 14 food pantries I never knew existed, including one that is within walking distance. And it's amazing how easy it could be for people who have an excess of tomatoes or squash, or peppers or melons or fruit, where to take it to and how convenient that is. What was your inspiration Gary for starting Ampleharvest org?

Gary Oppenheimer :

That's a great question. Actually. Either two things or two pieces of inspiration moments I grew up with don't waste food. My grandparents always told me you know, finish what's on your plate. Kids are starving in Europe. So not wasting food was always inculcated into me. As an adult and a Master Gardener i was growing more food than I can use, and I struggled to find a place to donate the food to. It turns out I found a battered woman shelter in my town. I'm in northern New Jersey. But what When I had gone on Google to find out where there are food pantries, Google said the nearest one was 25 miles away in another city. And I had an epiphany in March of oh nine and I realized, wait a minute. This is an information problem. This is not a food problem. People aren't hungry because America doesn't have enough food we actually throw away half the produce never gets consumed. The problem gardeners across America have always had was Misinformation and missing information. The misinformation was what we were all told that food drive that you can only donate jars or cans or boxes, but no fresh food. We gardener's took away from that you can't donate the extra tomato. The missing information was where is a food pantry and what's a good day of the week and time of day to donate it. When I realized that this was the information problem. I realized the solution was a web based internet based program that would both educate gardeners about their capacity that they can indeed donate food and to where to donate it near them. And the optimum day of the week and time of day that timing is super important because if you if a food pantry for argument's sake was distributing food to hungry families on Sunday afternoons, the ideal time for you to bring it in the Sunday morning, which means the ideal time for you to harvest is you set a Sunday morning or Saturday night. So the food would go from your garden, to the food pantry to a hungry family in hours. And the whole thing came together for me to one four hour session on my computer. And seven weeks later with the help of two volunteers may 2009 AmpleHarvest.org rolled out and it's been growing and reach and impact ever since.

Farmer Fred :

We're going to be using a couple of terms here that people may get confused. I find it confusing as well. Maybe you can explain that we will be talking about food banks and food pantries. What is the difference?

Gary Oppenheimer :

Oh, This is a fun question. All right. For most of America for all of America, a food bank is a large industrial warehouse type operation around 200 of them in America. They're part of the feeding American network. These a large warehouses real large amounts of food come in and large amounts of food are then redistributed out to the local programs for hungry families go. those local programs where hungry families go there are around 33,500 across America are usually called a food pantry and in some states have food cupboard or food shelf or food closet.

Farmer Fred :

Ample harvest org is geared to a wide range of gardeners, you've got home gardeners, new gardeners, farmers and food producers, master gardeners and school gardens. And boy I'm thinking about food waste and all of a sudden, wow, school gardens. I wonder what they're doing with all that excess food that they're growing in their little school. Especially when it may be happening in the summertime. And there isn't anybody there to harvest it.

Gary Oppenheimer :

school gardens. You're absolutely right. It's also camp Gardens by the way, but a school garden, you've planted the stuff and then the kids are gone for the summer and who's harvesting By the way, as do other places that don't think of themselves as gardens. You might have a golf course that has citrus fruits raining down, you might have a public park, for example. So there's lots and lots of opportunity for food to be donated from different places. The work we're doing is to enable as much wholesome, healthy, fresh, locally grown food to get to food pantries as possible, because that not only reduces hunger across America, but it also improves the nation's health and well being. The healthier your diet obviously, the healthier you are.

Farmer Fred :

I always believe that the word pharmacy should be spelled FARM-ACY why because Healthy, homegrown, fresh farm food is one of the best ways to get your health back.

Gary Oppenheimer :

Absolutely. And when you think about two of the leading causes of ill health in America, are our obesity and diabetes, which are both costly in terms of your own well being and cost in terms of just the medical care involved. Those are both diet impacted diseases, you improve the diet, you reduce those diseases, you have a healthier and thank you by extension a wealthier nation.

Farmer Fred :

One of the categories you have that you're appealing to is called New gardeners. But there's a subset of that that we were talking about before the interview called the accidental gardener and they can also participate with Ample harvest.org.

Gary Oppenheimer :

Yeah, I wrote a blog article about that earlier this year, the accidental gardener and people ask, well, what's an accidental gardener either you're a gardener or you're not and I had realized that if you buy a house The House came with a fruit tree that somebody previously planted apples, oranges, what have you. You may not think of yourself as a gardener if you don't get your fingers dirty and garden, but the reality is that every year the tree is raining down on you all this wonderful food, the apples and the oranges, what have you. And so I describe that person as the accidental gardener. That person too has the opportunity to donate the food. And I also want to give you as a one other number subject to change. You started this with thing there are 42 million gardeners in America. That's pre COVID. The data we're now seeing from our partners in the industry speaks to 58 million people and it may well be growing higher as millions more people start their own gardens. And I strongly believe that when we get past COVID-19 most of the people who started gardening are going to continue to garden that means more people gardening and more Healthy fresh food for the hungry family on a permanent basis. Look at one of the things really important when you grow a garden and I have my own garden, you're growing it for your own enjoyment. And for your own family, you should be enjoying that food first. The food however that you grow that's in excess of what you can use, or preserve or share with friends should never be going to waste. That's the food that should be donated to a local food pantry. And by the way, also the amount of surplus is not terribly important either. Don't feel bad if I only got five tomatoes to donate, donate your five tomatoes. It'll be commingled with all the other people with five tomatoes and 500 pounds of tomatoes. at the table. The important thing is that the food is eaten by somebody and nourishes somebody in the community. It's good for the community. Frankly, it's good for the planet because food waste is a contributing factor to climate change. And it's a wonderful way of people helping their neighbors in need by reaching into their backyards when they can't afford to reach into the back pocket. Today we are at work as you would say In 50 states in about 4200 communities, and today we're approaching 9000 food pantries, which is about a quarter of America's food pantries, which is great. That means we have three quarters of America's food pantries, yet to reach, engage and work with and work with those surrounding gardeners. So we have a lot of work ahead of us and your dollars certainly get us a long way toward succeeding on that.

Farmer Fred :

If you've got excess food, you know where to go Ampleharvest.org will aim you to the food pantry nearest you. Gary Oppenheimer is the founder of Ampleharvest.org. Gary, thanks for a few minutes of your time.

Unknown Speaker :

It's my pleasure. Thank you very much, everybody. Please stay safe. And we'll leave you with one final note. In these COVID times, we have guidance on the site for the gardener on how to be COVID safe when they're both growing the food for themselves and making the donation of food. So when you come to Ampleharvest.org Take a moment read the couple of bullet points on there that'll keep you the food and the food pantry staff safe so that the good you're doing really is good and nobody gets sick. So thank you very, very much.

Farmer Fred :

Thanks for listening to Garden Basics with Farmer Fred, brought to you by smart pots. garden basics comes out every Tuesday and Friday. It's available on many podcast platforms including Apple, Spotify, Google, play Stitcher, and many more. And if you're listening on Apple, please leave a comment or a rating that helps us decide which garden topics you'd like to see addressed. And again, thank you